Lubricate bullets even with carbide dies?

[Don Gwinn]

I'm going through the Speer manual Son gave me, and it tells me I don't have to lube cases for sizing if I use carbide dies. Obviously that's what I want to do, but the manual also mentions lubing the bullet before seating, but only in passing. It's not very clear about whether this is actually important or not.
So, do I need to lubricate bullets to seat them? We're talking about lead bullets in a .45 acp case to begin with. If so, do I use case lube?

[Bottom Gun]

I've never bothered with lubing straight wall cases when using carbide dies. Your lead slugs will seat just fine without any lube.

You do need to lube bottle neck cases though, even if the dies are carbide.

[Fred]

What Bottom Gun said...

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Regards - AZFred

[Joe Portale]

I have loaded .45acp with and with out case lube. I found that there was little or no advantage to the case lubing. Another handloader I know and respects swears by lubing all the cases. All I found with lubing pistol cases is added time cleaning off the lube. Bottle necked cases like .357sig or 44-40 need lube. Many a .357sig case has gotten stuck in the forming die without it. Just my 2 cents worth.


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Joe Portale
Tucson, Arizona Territory

"Those who turn their swords into plow shears,
end up plowing the fields of those who didn't"
Thomas Jefferson

[nwgunman]

I'm reading some very interesting posts here in the Handloading forum and this is one of them. First, why the heck would you even consider lubricating staight walled pistol cases when using carbide dies? Because some good ol boy told y'all HE always has? huh. Second, shooting lead bullets with NO lube is questionable at best for the .45 ACP. But this is more related to firing the round after it's assembled. Of course, the lube should go into the lube grooves on the bullet which are covered by the case after you load the round. So, yeah, lube your lead bullet before you seat it in the case. But now I gotta wonder, are you casting your own bullets? Or buying cast bullets with no lube? Maybe you should re-read that manual and a couple of others too, and talk to some experienced re-loaders (but not good ol Earl who lubes the heck out of everythang cause he ALWAYS HAS!) before going any further. Stay safe.

[Watchman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don Gwinn:
I'm going through the Speer manual Son gave me, and it tells me I don't have to lube cases for sizing if I use carbide dies. Obviously that's what I want to do, but the manual also mentions lubing the bullet before seating, but only in passing. It's not very clear about whether this is actually important or not.
So, do I need to lubricate bullets to seat them? We're talking about lead bullets in a .45 acp case to begin with. If so, do I use case lube?[/quote]


IF you use carbide dies you are not gaining anything by lubing the cases .You should lube your lead bullets however. How you lube them is not important.
I cast my own bullets in most common pistol calibers because I shoot quite a bit ,quite often. I have tried tumble lube, hot lube and cold lube with various mixtures of beeswax and parrafin. I have also tried them all with NO lube ...just to see if I could get away with it. I soon came to the conclusion that if it was'nt needed , no one would be doing it. Not only do the barrels get severly leaded up without it, but the accuracy really falls off after not many rounds have been shot. If the lead bullets passes the magic 1000fps mark, things really start happening fast.

In my expierence over the years, the hot lube seems to work for me the best. I mounted my bullet sizer (RCBS) on a hot plate sold by Midway. I turn it on for an hour or so before I use it. I use Thompson Blue Angel (also sold by Midway). The lube is much more durable than the cold lubes , but what suprised me the most was the level of accuracy it showed. A friend of mine who is an avid reloader and pistolero and the current Arkansas State Champ, decided to try some comparison tests on the range with it. We loaded some .357 158g SWC and made all things the same except for the lube ..we had 250 rounds of each. We used the same DAN WESSON .357 with a vent heavy 6" barrel. He had won several matches with this gun and it was known to be extremley accurate.

HE shot a 7,15,25 and 50 yards and measured the groups. He then shot the same amount of ammo at the same ranges with the "hot" lubed ammo.
We cleaned the revolver before shooting each type of ammo , then I shot exactly the same way just to see if we could verify the results.

We were surprised at the results . The hot lubed ammo consistently shot better than the cold lubed ammo.

WE both have a theory about this. When we were shooting, the temp. was hovering around the mid 90's. On the targets shot with the cold lubed bullets, some lube would splatter on the targets and would be evident around the holes in the paper. The hot lubed bullets did not do this. It seemed resonable to us, that some of the cold lube would separate from the bullets while they were in flight ..thus changing the weight of the bullets ever so slightly, just enough to make them inconsistent enough to open up the groups ...especially at the longer ranges. Now understand that we are just a couple of hillbillys living in the Ozarks,we aint scientists or anything like that. But it does seem reasonable. It convinced me enough that I only use hot lube for bullets now.
These are my expeirences, maybe they'll give you a bit of an idea on the hows and whys.

[Don Gwinn]

I said I'd apologize if I misunderstood, but in reading this again it's obvious that it has no place on TFL. I got carried away and I do apologize, and not just to Nwgunman. Sorry about that, folks.

Yes, I AM asking instead of taking "Ol' Earl's" advice. Thanks for your answers.

[This message has been edited by Don Gwinn (edited August 17, 2000).]

[JimWolford]

Don:

After reading all the above, I believe basics are what you were asking for- so

*All* lead bullets are lubricated before using &lt;S&gt;

*What* they are lubricated with has generated many heated discussions for over 100 years.

The lead bullets you purchase from custom casting firms normally come sized and lubricated, no additional lubricants needed.

You also mentioned carbide dies, No case lube needed with carbide dies.

Best information on all aspects of lead bullet use comes from Lyman, they have been in the business of selling bullet moulds longer than anybody else. Get their handbook if you don't get any others.

Jim



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Lay up some blackpowder and flints
The rest we can build, if need be

[bk40]

Don,

Keep the questions coming- only dumb question is one thats not asked!

Occasionaly I have lubed some straight walled pistol brass while using carbide dies... it slightly reduces the force needed to resize them. You don't need to do this. Just make sure your brass is clean and load on!!

[Hal]

Hmm, I was under the impression that what Don is doing IS asking rather than taking 'ole Earl's advice.

FWIW, ditto Bottom gun's advice.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited August 17, 2000).]

[Hutch]

No flame intended for anyone here, but...

There is no such thing as a stupid question. I personally LOVE the opportunity to share what humble knowledge I've gained with whomever asks. Don has been a major contributor to these boards ever since I signed on, a year or so ago, and I for one appreciate the opportunity to give something back to him and any other lurker who may gain from the exchange.

Don, I hope it's clear by now that 1) you don't lube straight-walled cases before you size them, 2) Commercially-produced cast bullets are already lubed, so don't sweat that part of the reference material you found, and 3) Nobody is born knowing this stuff, and not everyone has a mentor at hand they can learn from.

I basically taught myself to reload, using off-the-shelf references and the school of hard knocks. It's not rocket science, but it requires common sense, a command of basic principles, and attention to detail. Let there be no further unpleasantness here.

[Don Gwinn]

Please read my edited post above. I apologize for my earlier tone. It had no place on TFL, which is supposed to be a place for "the high road." Nwgunman, I still don't know whether you were trying to imply anything unpleasant about me but I was wrong to assume so and it was worse to respond in flames. I apologize.

[Bogie]

Gentlemen, I must be different...

When I'm going to be sizing a large number of handgun cases, I'll dump 'em all in a bag, and give 'em a second or two of Hornady One Shot, and then shake 'em to disperse it... I tumble 'em after I size anyway, so cleaning isn't a problem, and the little bit of lube eases the sizing process.

For my .223 FL sized stuff, I generally use One Shot or some Dillon spritz on stuff. Most of the other rifles get neck sizing only, except for when I FL size my benchrest brass - With that, I only bump the shoulder back a thou or so... I use Imperial Die Wax on the first, and every other, case...

[Don Gwinn]

So:

1. I do need to lubricate lead bullets, or buy 'em lubed. I don't plan to cast bullets to begin with (K.I.S.S.) so the lead bullets I buy will normally come lubed, yes?

2. Don't need to lube straight-walled cases as long as I use carbide dies--but I WILL need lube if I ever use non-carbide dies or even with them when I start reloading necked cartridges like .30-06.

Now, one more question: will I need to lube jacketed bullets as well?

[WalterGAII]

Don't lube jacketed bullets.

[Fred]

Don,

1. Yes

2. Yes

one more: No

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Regards - AZFred

[nwgunman]

Don Gwin: I'm trying to support the asking of questions (as was stated, the are no dumb questions!) rather than just following along behind those who may or may not know what they're doing. That's why there are "forums": to talk things up, exchange views and information (or MISinformation!) and just generally communicate. With the growing interetst in reloading the last few years, we see more people getting involved who have little or no previous exposure to the craft. Being safe is asking questions. Being smart is asking questions. "Watchman" is wrong when he says of his friend and himself "we ain't scientists" because, as we can see, he uses reasoning and scientific problem solving rather than just bumbling along down the same old path. Stay safe.

[ArmySon]

Don,
First, your original question is understandable. It may seem apparent to many on this board but to a new reloader, it can be confusing. Don't ever be afraid to ask a question.

A majority of lead bullets that you will buy come lubed. It's pretty easy to tell because they'll have a ring near the base of the bullet. The lube ring can be a variety of different color.

Here's an example:


[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited August 19, 2000).]

[johnwill]

Gee Sun Tao, at least you could have posted the bullet picture in color, so we could really see the lube ring!

[ArmySon]

HUH?

[Big Bunny]

Agree with all foregoing.

Lubing of larger straight wall pistol cases in ordinary steel dies recommended to reduce effort/wear.

Lyman'Cast Bullet Handbook' should be required reading, as it is not expensive and has 120 years of experience in casting/lubing etc.

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If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.

[rkmstr]

Right now all I reload is 357sig using a Dillon Carbide sizing die. I do not lube my cases and have had no problems in several thousand reloads. I can't tell any difference lubed or unlubed. I do clean my brass prior to sizing though.

Gary