The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 21, 2005, 08:57 AM   #1
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
30 Carbine Wildcat in 25 caliber reloading

This is the very gun that got me into reloading. It was handed down from my grandfather who was a partime hobby gunsmith. What he did was sporterize this carbine with a nice Bishop Mannlicher stock and he rebarreled it necking it down to 25 caliber and added a nice 4x Weaver scope to it. It is a very neat / beautiful looking set up. I'm not quite sure why he built this gun, but all I can think was that 30 carbine guns were incredibly cheap at the time, and he most likely wanted to make it useful for something like varmints getting it to shoot a little flatter.

Being that my grandfather died in 1971 when I was only 6 weeks old, all I received with this gun was a box of "stuff" and no verbal instruction . It that box were the reloading dies H110, bullets, and lots of 30 carbine brass. There was also an old Hornady reloading manual that had 256 Winchester magnum loading data circled. I have been doing a little research on this, and have found that the 256 WM is a necked down 357 mag case. I would consider the 357 case and the 30 carbine case far too different even think that this reloading data would cross over. Actually, I did figure out that the 256 WM data was too hot, as I had a reload split by the case head and blew the magazine out the bottom, broke the extractor and cracked the stock . The gun is all fixed now and I was thinking about working up a good load for it, but I'm looking for a good place to start. In the box of "stuff", I have came across 75 and 90 grain 25 caliber bullets. I am hesitant to use reloading data from the 30 carbine because the raised pressure in using the 25 caliber bullet. Am I right here, or would 30 carbine data be a good start?

Does anyone out there have this type of Wildcat? Or ever heard of one before?

Thanks,

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 12:28 PM   #2
gm110656
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 16
That sounds like a very interesting piece. Your grandfather must have been quite tallented. I would recomend NOT using 30 carbine data but instead using 25/20 data. This might not have enough pressure to cycle the action but it's a much safer starting point.
gm110656 is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 01:03 PM   #3
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
Hey GM, Thanks for the tip

I guess that it would make a lot of sense to use the 25-20 data instead of the 256 WM or the 30 Carbine data. I was about sick and thought that I runed the gun when the case had let go. Also, I may send the dies in to get them fixed up a bit because if memory serves me right, we could never get a good crimp on the bullet. I think he had the dies custom made at LEE as he only lived a stones throw away from there over in Cornell, WI. He had kind of a neat setup, he was the town barber on mainstreet, had his gun shop in the basement, and raised his family on the 2nd floor.

I have never heard of anyone with this combination before, and like I said he must have had something in mind for it. We have used it over the years for deer hunting and it has proven to be less than sufficient for the job. I heard that he was quite talented as you say, and as far as my mother is concerned he walked on water, but as I said I never really met him as he died at a young age (56) when I was just 6 weeks old. As far as I can tell, I think he just finished the gun before he passed away and never really got the time to work up a load for it. After I had the mishap with it, I decided that I would set it down for a while until I gained a bit more reloading experience. It is now about 10 years later, and I have grown my knowledge base a bit more and I think I can handle the task at hand. Sure would be neat if I could get 100yd MOA accuracy out of it, that would have made gramps pretty happy.

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 01:32 PM   #4
Rimrod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Behind enemy lines
Posts: 1,309
5.7 Johnson

The 5.7 Johnson was a .30 Carbine necked down to .224 caliber. In the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions they state the case capacity is 16.47 grains of water. If this is close to your capacity the only loads they list are 40 gr. bullet with 14.0 grains of 2400 or 50 grain bullet with 14.0 grains of IMR4198.

Rod
__________________
"... he held his gun as almost every man skilled in such matters preferred to hold one when in action, with a half bent elbow that brought the gun slightly in front of his body at about, or slightly above, the level of the waist." - Wyatt Earp from Wyatt Earp Frontier Marshall by Stuart N. Lake
Rimrod is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 02:11 PM   #5
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
I think I need to slug the bore

My case capacity should be pretty close to that. I'm not sure if I could get bullets that light though.

I think to be on the safe side, I should slug the bore to see if it is: (.251 not likely), .257 or .258. Probably a good starting point and then go from there.

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 05:11 PM   #6
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
I'm with GM. Use top .25-20 data for your starting point and work upcarefully until the action cycles. I'd use something less touchy than H110 for starters, 4227 or 2400 probably.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old December 21, 2005, 10:18 PM   #7
gm110656
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 16
Slugging the bore might not be necessary. Chances are good that your grandfather got quality barrel stock for that gun and most likely of current manufacture for that period. With this in mind, I would place my money on the bore being .257 and nothing else. Load data to cycle the action is going to be a crap shoot until you get comfortable with your loading skills but whatever you do, error on the side of caution!!! You'll have to post some pics of this piece. I wouldn't mind shooting that one for sure
gm110656 is offline  
Old December 22, 2005, 02:48 PM   #8
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
I'll see what I can do for the pictures. H110 is what I was using before when the case let go, and I agree it maybe is a bit touchy for this application. Maybe Bullseye, 2400 or Unique would be a better choice and loading for 357 and 38 spec, I certainly have a bunch of that around.

I am going to keep my eye out for another 30 carbine at area gunshows, or atleast the action as that 5.7 Johnson looks rather neat and may make for a fun project. I wonder if it would be possible to neck it down to 17 caliber? That would be rather neat! I'll call it the "17 JSF"!!! What should a guy expect to pay for an action or a donor gun to start with? I have a bunch of spare parts in the box of "Stuff" I got with the gun, but not a complete action.

I have some time this weekend, maybe I will start to get this thing in order.

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 22, 2005, 10:09 PM   #9
gm110656
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 16
Well, the 30 Carbine has reached collector status and you'll pay at least $300+ for an Inland. There were many companies that produced the M1 and some are more valuable than others. Good luck in your quest!
gm110656 is offline  
Old December 23, 2005, 03:49 AM   #10
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,193
"...Maybe Bullseye..." Geezuz, NO. No guessing allowed. Unique, H110 and 2400 are .30 carbine powders, but not Bullseye.
You absolutely must slug the bore and make a chamber cast. It's entirely possible that your granda made his own wildcat based on the carbine case. It may have been one of his 'projects'. Assume nothing.
Unless you can find your granda's loading notes, assuming he did make notes, you may be best to hang the rifle up in a place of honour. Carbines aren't rare, but if your granda was playing with that one, it'd be a fitting tribute.
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 09:04 AM   #11
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
IMR 4831 is all that the data lists

T.O.,

You are right. There is no data that I can find that speaks of Bullseye used as a powder. Actually, if I were to stick to the 25-20 loading spec's as have been recommended here, I would then have to use IMR 4831 as that is all I have seen data listed for.

I did finally find some notation that said that the bore is .257".

Thanks,

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 09:44 AM   #12
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
Eh, plenty of data for .25-20. For 75 grain bullets, top .25-20 loads are:
AA-1680 12.5
H4198 12.8
5744 11.2
H4227 9.3
H322 13.5

For 86 grain bullet:
H4198 11.5
H4227 8.6 grains
H322 12 grains
2400 8.8 grains

Any of those would be a safe starting load in your wildcat since it has more case capacity and will take much more pressure than .25-20 specs.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 09:43 AM   #13
jsflagstad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 402
Thanks Lefty..

Thanks for the info, I think I have atleast 2 of those powders on the shelf. I think this gun has the ability to be a good shooter but it will take a little work to get there. Now I just have to find a good use for it......

JSF
jsflagstad is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 11:33 AM   #14
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
I have a 5.7 mm Johnson 30 cal carbine

I am also woking on a 30 Kurtz. Necked to 5.7 mm Johnson Or???

If you have the dies and all that, should be no problem. Just make sure you full size and put a good crimp on the bullet. I would go with the lightest bullet and 4227 It is a very popular powder.

Use Carbine brass, use the same primers, trickle your loads to be perfect.
A cast of the chamber dosen't seem necessary since you have the dies.

Use a light load and fire form your cases. Anneal your case's prior to sizing and get a good reloading book regarding what I have said.

Some of the cartridges you are talking about are rimmed and some are not make sure you are using the right cartridge. If not sure, cast the chamber or the die.

It takes numerous steps to resize from 30 cal to 25 cal. You might want to check with RCBS and get there input. You might even have to ream the inside of the cartridge (wall thickness at neck).

Start out with some new brass unfired and anneal the neck area. There are books that cover that step. Don't load more then 3 rounds and then go out and fire them.

I would go with the lowest setting for 4227 regarding the 30 cal loading.
2400 is ok also. Forget the others for now. If you have H110 fine.
Read the book on signs of pressure and stay on the light side, work up at a 1/2 of a grain at a time.

Always load your mag and let the bolt take the bullet from the mag.
Don't shoot any lead in a gas operated weapon. Make sure the barrel and chamber are very clean.

Good luck.

Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 12:53 PM   #15
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
Quote:
Don't shoot any lead in a gas operated weapon.
Just because? Where did that come from, and why should we pay any attention to you?
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 08:56 PM   #16
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
Leftoverdj, Because could be one reason.

The others are it plugs up the hole that allows the gas to operate the piston that causes the weapon to reload and fire the next round.

At the velocity he will be pushing that bullet it is not a good idea even if it was not gas operated.

Also I have done this for awhile and thought it would be a good thing to tell him.

Leftoverdj, have you ever cleaned a gas operated rifle or pistol with lead in the port that sends the gas to the piston? I suggest you go ahead and shoot it with lead bullets, and then get back to me. I'd love to hear you then.

Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 11:06 PM   #17
gm110656
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 16
I hate to take sides here but I've been shooting lead gas checked bullets in my SKS for years and at 1,700 fps. Maybe I am missing something.
gm110656 is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 11:18 PM   #18
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
Why would you want to shoot a sks at 1700fps?

But that is right around the speed where you might get buy with it.

Good for you, you won't catch me doing that. For one thing I would not shoot the sks at 1700 fps and second I would not shoot lead in it. That is probably one gun I will never reload for.

You do what makes you happy and I will still say it is very seldom, a practice to shoot lead in gas operated weapons.

Harley.
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 04:59 AM   #19
gm110656
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 16
Well, the 1,700 fps velocity is only a few hundred fps off the mark of military ammo and it's meeting my expectations so that's why but, I have chronographed loads up to 2,000 fps with fine ejection. Shotguns have been gas operated for decades and for use with unshielded pure lead slugs so it's not only me that's confused.
gm110656 is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 08:41 AM   #20
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
GM Go for it if it please's you.



Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 10:53 AM   #21
Brian Williams
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2001
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,251
Lead in a gas operated Semi is a mess to clean up from the gas port and into the gas piston.
Not a recommended proposition, but with Gas checks to keep the hot gases off of the base of the bullet, maybe it would be ok.

Still lead and lube in a gas cylinder make for a mess, keep it clean

This is like shooting lead in a Glock or other polygonal rifling, done right and cleaned often then there is no problem
__________________
Brian
<><
Brian Williams is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 12:22 AM   #22
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
Quote:
The others are it plugs up the hole that allows the gas to operate the piston that causes the weapon to reload and fire the next round.

At the velocity he will be pushing that bullet it is not a good idea even if it was not gas operated.

Also I have done this for awhile and thought it would be a good thing to tell him.

Leftoverdj, have you ever cleaned a gas operated rifle or pistol with lead in the port that sends the gas to the piston? I suggest you go ahead and shoot it with lead bullets, and then get back to me. I'd love to hear you then.

Harley
Not all gas operated weapons even HAVE pistons. And, no, I have never cleaned anything with a lead clogged port. Since I gunsmithed for about 15 years, you'd think I woulda seen it if it was gonna happen. And since I have shot thousands of cast bullets through gas operated weapons, you'd think it woulda happened to me if it was gonna happen. A good bit of that was through SKSs before cheap surplus ammo was readily available, but there were also a couple of M-1 Carbines and a Hakim.

Tell me, Harley, how many cast bullets do you shoot?
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 06:39 AM   #23
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
leftoverdj

I don't shoot lead cast in gas operated weapons, I do shoot them in revolvers.

Iwill stick with my post's and you stick with yours.
I believe Brian has some solid information on the topic.

Currently I am working on a load for my 44 mag with hard cast bullets.
I purchased some cowboy 427, am going to wrap with teflon tape and do a factory lee crimp. See if I can get some extra velocity and less leading.
I may or may not use a gas check, depends on trial and error.

I loaded quite a bit of lead when I shot 38's and 45 cal revolvers.

The deal with the 44 mags came from some stuff I read about regarding the hard cast bullets that seem to be popular with the 45-70 Gang.
Something I have wanted to do for a while. Many years ago we had the hard cast and shot them, now it seems to be in vogue with the cowboy loads.
Any suggestions?

I don't load for my 9mm or 40 cal Glock I fire factory. I fire special reloads in my 5.7 mm johnson M1 carbine conversion, but they are Jacketed since it is in excess of 3000fps. I dont reload for the SKS I shoot wolf or ???

I have been shooting and reloading for 40 years so you could say I have done some reloading, both lead and jacketed. I use to cast but it is not worth the hassle.
Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 10:19 AM   #24
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
Luck with the patching project, Harley. I can't comment because I have not done that.

I'm satisfied with cast GC bullets in my Marlin 1894, the only .44 Magnum I shoot. It gives just over 1 inch fifty yard groups at 1700+ fps without leading.

Back to the SKS, I shoot 159 grain cast GC at 2200 fps from my CZ in 7.62x39 with a lot better accuracy than I get from Wolf and Barnaul. Have to heat treat them to do that, but that's not much trouble. Haven't used that load in my SKS because it throws the brass too far and my eyes are past good results with iron sights, but I know of no reason why it would not work.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12528 seconds with 9 queries