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Old December 16, 2005, 06:36 PM   #1
plom
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your favorite 44 BP Revolver?

what is your favorite 44 cal BP revolver and why? I would like to find a good allround 44 revolver, and was wondering to get a Dragoon. what ya guys think of this one? Thanks for the infos!
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Old December 16, 2005, 07:14 PM   #2
mec
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Dragoons are Good. Particularly good now that such places as VTI and Cimarron will supply you with any and all necessary replacement parts. I pre-fitted a hand/spring assembly to mine the other day and it required much less metal removal than is usually the case with Colt Navies and Armies. In fact, I believe it would have worked fine with no fitting at all.

For repeatable accuracy, good downrange results and ease of carry, I like my Uberti Army just fine.


In the past, spare parts availablilyt was so poor that the Navy and Army Colt types and the Remingtons were the only reasonable choice for extensive shooting. Now that VTI and Cimarron stock parts for the Uberti's of all types, I would not discourage anybody from getting hold of a Dragoon. A lot of people find it the most physically attractive off all the percussion revolvers.
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Old December 16, 2005, 07:52 PM   #3
Old Dragoon
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MEC, Everytime I see that picture of the Dragoon, I can't help wondering how in the Sam Hill did you take it. The Dragoon appears suspended in mid air. The other one with the knife, I could see how the knife was stuck in the limb, but that Dragoon was just there afloating. Did you perhaps place it upon a picture of the woods and the knife? Cool picture anyhoo..
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Old December 16, 2005, 09:42 PM   #4
mec
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That's why I kept it- that floating sensation. It is resting on one of the mesquite limbs but looks all sort of levitational or superimposed.
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Old December 16, 2005, 10:57 PM   #5
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I'm probably the 90th person or so to say this, but i've got no choice but to say one of my '58 Remingtons. They're just so easy to do everything with, that it's silly.
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:21 AM   #6
Smokin_Gun
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I'd like too say...

An 1858 Double action Star .44 C&B, but I don't have one so I will say if I had to choose only one it would be an 1858 New Army Remington...Pietta. If Euroarms had a conversion kit I'd Probably say Euroarms...I really like the Armi San Paolo I have and would buy another in a heartbeat. Euroarms bought Armi San Paolo out in the year 2000. Euroarms still sells ASP parts via email orders. The primary reason I choose Pietta is because of the .447" chambers to the .450" grooves compared to the .450" chambers to .460" grooves of the Ubertis.

If it was a Colt it would be the 1860 Army hands down.
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:43 AM   #7
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Smoke,

Glad to see you finally agree the ball should be near groove diameter on a BP pistol.

Was a time you told me a .440 ball in a .460 barrel was fine, or sumpin' like that. As long as it "kissed the lands", the important part of the barrel, you'd shoot sub one inch all day. 'member the "Little Balls" thread?

The ball gotta fit the barrel, or you are shootin' the same thing as a smoothbore, with mebbe a little twist, from the "kissin' balls".

Cheers,

George
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Old December 17, 2005, 06:11 AM   #8
Smokin_Gun
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Never said that George

You are very sadly mistaken one more time. What I told you was that a .44 cal C&B is called that because the bore is
.440". I said that the Uberti .460 shooting a .454 or .457 ball was just fine as it is being shot out of a .450" dia. chamber.
You really ought put that book done and pay more attention to what people are saying. Instead of trying to prove everyone wrong, you could actually learn something instead of second guessing about "Black Powder" Revolvers. I know I tried hard enough to help you and look at what I have gotten in return George. Anyway old friend you Have a Merry Christmas. It's my Birthday and I don't really feel like arguing with you anymore. I know who's right anyway an so do you...HeHe!
Happy Holidays George to you and your family.

SG
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:12 PM   #9
Old Dragoon
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Hey George, Glad to see you got that parts gun The "58 Rem. I was gonna bid on it, but saw your moniker and decided not to bid. I got the Gold Trigger '58 on the GB site.

My shootin' buddy Cowboy, now back in Louisville, KY, always told me that the lead had better match the land and grooves or it'd never fly Right. Drive bands match the grooves, bullet bore size matches the lands, or maybe a tish bigger . All pass thru the forcing cone and that determines what the actual size of the drive bands.
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Old December 17, 2005, 11:58 PM   #10
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Dragoon,

Does your bid name have a J and a number? I think one you got was on my watch list, that you mentioned buying a couple days ago. I didn't intend to bid, just like to see what they finally go for.

Wanted to bid on the Walker on the other Auction site, wasn't sure if it was worth 225, asked here and no one replied. It went for 225.

I just bid till I was high then went to bed, got it or no when I woke up, wound up I did.

Thanks for not bidding, would have lost since I was sleeping.

You gave me the idea of a project gun for the winter. This one needs a latch post and drawfiling, from the description and pics, won't know any more till it gets here. Should be fun. Since the barrel will be white, might even see what some of you like in antiquing it. Can always reblue if I don't like it.

If it is in bad shape(the guy used a pipe wrench or something to get the barrel off, for Pete's sake!), with say, a bent frame, have a spare (3rd) cylinder, springs, pins, hand, etc. Don't think I will have lost money on it.

Cheers,

George
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Old December 18, 2005, 01:19 AM   #11
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Nope just the same as here. The "58 I got was from a pawnshop here in southern CA. Don't know exactly what it is, other than "58 Rem. 44 BP by Pietta and a gold trigger(can't find anything on that at all)....but,......it does have a dovetailed sight and latch....I'm hoping it's a "Shooter Pistol" they have different rifling, deeper and less lands and grooves. This is not the ame as the version with adjustable sights. I should have it by Sat.

I think your frame will be fine. The guy that applied the pipewrench or whatever, probably had the frame in the vice. Let us know how deep those scratches are. If they aren't any deeper than the proofs, then you are home free.
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Old December 18, 2005, 04:05 AM   #12
gmatov
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Dragoon,

I think you are right, but if it is scrap, otherwise, still a good buy. Cabela's cyl, 35 bucks, VTI, 60 +.

Whatcha gonna do?

Smoke,

Happy Birthday, I don't remember 52, either, been quite a while ago. Remember I could do my job, and I can't now.

I don't wanna argue, but I gotta quote this:"The primary reason I choose Pietta is because of the .447" chambers to the .450" grooves compared to the .450" chambers to .460" grooves of the Ubertis."

Now, if that ain't sayin' you would prefer the ball to be close to the groove diameter, I really don't know what in the hell you ARE sayin'.

Actually, the ball can't obturate in the cylinder, as it is captured in the cylinder before it starts to move. It could squish to half its length, but it would still be chamber size. When it leaves the chamber, it will no longer squish out, as the pressure starts to fall off instantly, it smacks the forcing cone and the grooves, and if it is way under groove size, it will enter and leave the barrel at under groove size.

That ain't good for accuracy, bouncin' a ball down the barrel. Should grip the rifling, tight, all the way down.

Ain't a rifle shooter in the world who would buy, or keep, a rifle that was essentially a "smoothbore". Why should we?

Cheers,

George
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Old December 18, 2005, 05:52 AM   #13
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George Thank you for the Happy Birthday wish.
I have always said the tighter the tolerance the more accurate...what you said to me that i told you was it doesn't have to be an equal chamber to barrel. That was your arguemnet and what I was tryin to explain to you.
A .447 ball does not bounce down a .452 barrel like you thought it did....that's what i said. Nor does a .450 chamered ball bounce down a .460 grooved barrel. On each the lands are still .440 (bore=.44cal) Do you follow that now? you don't have to ream your chamber to .460 to match the grooves. The Colts and Rems back theen were approx. .447 chambers and .452 groove x .440 lands just lke the replicas...follow me now george? If you want to match your bores and chambers there nothin wrong with it, and I agree it may be a little more accurate. But I don't need more accutrate the all shots in a cylinder touchin at 25 yards...Or knockin over steel Ram silouettes at 100 yards... Ya know?
And Merry Christmas to you and yours George we'll be flyin out of here tuesday the 20th for upstate N.Y....I got a 3hr59min be there at 3:01pm or 1501 to you...HeHe! layover in Atlanta if you wanna come visit me ) Hell I'll buy ya lunch..
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Old December 19, 2005, 12:37 PM   #14
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Hey Guys, the thing I would like to say is that I asked Val Forgett about why the Italians make the cap&ball revolvers (most anyway) with smaller than groove diameter chambers. He said he knows they do that to prepare for subsequent shots where "fouling" has accumulated. Notice the revolvers that are known for accuracy have chambers sized right at groove diameter or a few.001's over(Ruger Old Army). A lot of guns shoot fine with smaller than groove diameter chambers as Smokin has related and I guess it has to do with obsturation of the lead upon firing. It was stated above that the ball can'y obsturate in a chamber and then after the ball leaves the chamber the pressure drops "off" appreciably so the lead can't obsturate then either. Well....the pressures rise even after the ball has passed the cylinder gap and is in the barrel. Still burning powder. It has been shown in a test that was conducted in relation to "hammer seating" caps and the rules of CASS to negate the hammer seating of caps that the ball when to the side of the barrel(where it is when capping is done) travels with less velosity and a much smaller energy (concidered non-lethal) than when the ball is aligned with the barrel.When the ball in the chamber is aligned with the barrel it has greatly increased velosity and thus much more energy and ft/lbs and becomes lethal as we all know. Well, with the increase of energy that the ball attains when going through the barrel bcause of the "rising pressures" the ball can certainly have a possibility of being obsturated to a larger diameter. I think the consistancy of the obsturation is reliant to a certian degree on the resistance the ball gives to overcoming an increase in velosity. In other words the more resistance the ball gives the powder blast the more the lead can obsturate. This resistance of the ball to the movement the powder blast imparts on the ball must be different in some guns than others and that must mean that some guns with smaller than groove diameter chambers can obsturate lead "more consistantly" than others and thus be more accurate than others. Anywhooo, I believe the revolver that in one way or the other ends up with the ball tight to the grooves in the barrel and sealing the gases behind it are more accurate. Why? Well.....we all know what a worn crown on the muzzle of a gun barrel can do to accuracy. Well....a gun that shoots a ball that is loose in a barrel and doesn't seal the gases behind it and leaves a space between the ball and the barrels grooves can let gases shoot through the space there. Right at the mill=second the ball very first becomes unsupported by the barrel the gases jetison out the spaces that are open where the ball didn't seal the gases behind it and move the ball off the line of sight. The gases errupt out some spaces and then because of "fouling" the next shot the gases errupt out another space. One space one time more than others and then another space more than others the next time. JUST LIKE A GUN BARREL WITH A WORN OUT CROWN AT THE MUZZLE. tHAT CAUSES THE GASES TO MOVE THE BALL OFF THE LINE OF SIGHT IN ANY DIRECTION THE CAOS OF NATURE AND IT'S WHIMS DICTATES. When a ball is shot through a barrel and the lead of the ball fills the grooves "tight" the gases errupt out at the muzzle uniformily around the crown of the barrel and leave the ball right on the line of sight and makes a more accurate revolver. Other factors come into play naturally even with the gun with the chambers that size the ball right at or a little over groove diameter of the barrel. One big factor is the shooter holding the gun. A shooter that is well versed in firing a pistol naturally negates more human error than a shooter that has not aquired the "knack" for shooting the pistol. Cap&ball pistol, the subject of this posting. Well that may be why Smokin-Gun can shoot good groups with his pistols. Experience and maybe.....some aspect of his loading or gun barrel characteristics may be coming together at the right time in the same space in the universe and BINGO.... there goes another bullseye. The other factor that I'd like to mention with these cap&ball revolvers in guestion here is the "fouling" caused by the blackpowder or the substitute used to fire the gun.Fouling by it's very nature does not adhere to the barrel walls as uniformly as some may think. Look in the barrel of a dirty revolver sometime. Well, the fouling accumulation that is actually different for each shot fired(first shot through a clean barrel, last shot through a dirty barrel, middle shot through a less dirty barrel than the last. Each shot fired goes through a barrel that has a different amount of fouling than the prior to and after than shots. Well that affects the resistance the ball gives to the powder when it goes through the barrel. Every shot a different resistance imparted to the ball and every shot the ball is affected by the powder blast a little differently because of that resistance. That is kind of like putting a different powder charge in each of the chambers all the time and we all know that can affect accuracy right? Well, I believe it does. What can a person do? Clean the barrel after every shot? That may be ok for a guy shooting a muzzleloading rifle but for a guy shooting a cap&ball revolver. Well, a good lube that keeps the barel clean or at least uniformly fouled each shot would work. The last time I used a lube that did that was the last shot I fired with Hodgdon's Spit Ball Lube until I started using a lube pill(grease cookie) "behind each ball" in the chamber. A grease cookie made of beeswax and a good natural lube will keep a barrel clean and keep the chambers clean(at least from the position of the lube pill out to the opening) for 100's of shots. That is a recipe for better and consistant accuracy. A clean barrel and chambers. I might add to this by saying that for some reason the 36cal. revolvers like the wax-lube pill smeared "over" the ball instead of under it like the 44 cal. DEFINITLY prefers. The lube pill over the 36 cal. ball is no different than putting a lube over the ball you say? Well. the wax in the lube pill holds the lube pill over the ball as all the other chambers ignite their powder charges unlike a regular lube that is blown out a great deal by preceeding shots fired. Well, I believe that as the ball in a 36 cal. chamber flies into the forcing cone of the barrel the wax lube pill over it flows to the sides of the ball(unless the pill is made with too much wax and is too hard) not wanting to overcome inertia and ends up spread out in the forcing cone and is then moved in front of the powder blast and travels down the barrel behind the ball where the heat can melt some of it and lube the barrel walls before the fouling gets there first. Bingo, cleaner barrel. Anywhoioo... the 44 cal. balls for some reason like the lube pill just fine behind them and that keeps the barrels and chambers cleaner for sure. The chambers getting hard fouling on their walls(as I'm sure we've all seen with the cap&baller) swags the balls smaller as the fouling builds. That affects accuracy too I would imagine. The pills behind the balls in the chambers negates the fouling building on the chambers walls and leaves the ball the size the chamber is reamed to and that helps accuracy too. I could go into the aspect of reaming the chambers to match or size a few .001's over the groove diameter of the barrel at this point but I have to go talk to a man about a horse. See yas Pards.
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Old December 26, 2005, 09:02 AM   #15
SmokinTom
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Of the 2 that I have I like my 1860 Army the best.I just like the lines and feel of it over my 1858 Rem.Excellent shooter too.
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Old December 26, 2005, 10:01 AM   #16
Remington kid
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1858 Remington .44 for feel, smoothness, look's and accuracy.
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