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Old December 5, 2005, 07:44 PM   #26
Zak Smith
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I will continue to circle him/her in the direction of their strong side in the hope that an opening comes. Depending on which weapon I have, I also just may sizzle one close to his head hoping he might duck into it, . . . and remind him that I just missed him that time, . . . gonna get him with the next one.

I will not pass up the shot Zak Smith has on the BG's legs and feet, . . . he ain't going anywhere with two shot up legs and feet.

I will be screaming at him all along, . . . demeaning, discouraging, dissing, abusing, degrading epithets about him, his parents, his children, anything to burn his gizzard at me. I want him to come after me, . . . one on one, . . . he is dead meat, . . . or at least I have given it my best.
Good comments from Dwight55. Situations like these are a reason I suggest to anyone who will listen that taking some Force on Force (FOF) training from good instructors is invaluable. No, it's not "the real thing", but it's the closest you'll get and the learning potential is IMMENSE.

Why did I say I'd take the shot? Because I know my capabilities with regard to pistol shooting, moving, and the moving target-- and in that FOF training scenario, I was ready to take it. I held off and ended the scenario a different way because a safety in rule for the sims was "no headshots".

It wasn't for another several seconds that I realized that I needed to FLANK the BG, not just move forward as he retreated towards the car. Flanking can help to expose more of the BG. I also think that usually communicating to the BG is almost always a bad idea unless it serves to upset his OODA loop, confuse him, or misdirect him.
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Old December 5, 2005, 08:27 PM   #27
Dwight55
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Zak wrote: "It wasn't for another several seconds that I realized that I needed to FLANK the BG, not just move forward as he retreated towards the car. Flanking can help to expose more of the BG. I also think that usually communicating to the BG is almost always a bad idea unless it serves to upset his OODA loop, confuse him, or misdirect him."

Two thoughts, . . . remember when doing the flanking movement to always move into the bg's strong side (if he is right handed, circle clockwise, . . . left handed, counter clock-wise), . . . couched on the idea that it is harder for him to find you if he takes the gun off the hostage, . . . as his reach is then longer. He also has to expose a lot more of himself to take a shot at you.

As far as the dialog, . . . if we all think back, . . . we can remember when we were younger, . . . and we got into a dialog with someone who did the verbal thing better than we did. It flustered us, un-nerved us, angered us, and before it was all over, . . . they got the upper hand (or at least we thought they did).

This is the game we have to play here, . . . keep the chatter going at him, . . . let him know he's a punk, a creep, his mother is ugly, his sister is worse, he's gonna die here on this corner, his soul is sold to hell, he doesn't have a chance, you are willing to die yourself to make sure he does, when he pulls the trigger, you are going to shoot through the hostage's body to get him, . . . keep it up so he has no ability to think, formulate a plan.

All the while, you are circling him, . . . sooner or later he has to get dizzy, trip, fall, anything that will give you the edge. It only comes to you, though, if you take control of the situation from the git-go.

You are correct, Zak when you spoke against other dialog. Trained negotiators may come when the LEO's show up, . . . most of us don't have the training to do that right, . . . so the next best thing is the "Dirty Harry" type "Go ahead, . . . make my day, . . . " approach.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old December 6, 2005, 05:50 AM   #28
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UK Military Counter Terrorist Team doctrine is two in the head for that scenario; no ifs or buts - the experience is that the recipient is instantly dead.
Naturally your skills need to be on the top shelf and your head must be wired up the right way - forget about the 'what ifs' and 'they'll muscle twitch if I shoot'. If you don't shoot you'll be guilty of allowing them to kill another person - how does your conscience feel then?
I've never been placed in a position where I have had to do that, but like many I know that I have the aptitude and attitude to do so without hesitation.
I've had to engage terrorists in the urban environment in Northern Ireland, and there I was firing a 5.56mm SA80 rifle. You can imagine that as a skilled weapons professional every scenario span through my mind in an instant - are the ROEs looking good, is the backstop okay, are the civilians clear, what if? what if? what if?
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Old December 6, 2005, 10:43 AM   #29
Glenn E. Meyer
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I would disagree with the following ideas:

Things like shoot out the tires on the "getaway" vehicle if it is close.

Wasting ammo and time with no guarantee of disabling the tire

I'll also put a couple of rounds over his head just to let him know that I'm not afraid to shoot him or at him (you would be amazed how many folks just fold up when they hear lead zinging around their head).

I will continue to circle him/her in the direction of their strong side in the hope that an opening comes. Depending on which weapon I have, I also just may sizzle one close to his head hoping he might duck into it, . . . and remind him that I just missed him that time, . . . gonna get him with the next one.

You are seriously suggesting to launch rounds into an environment without any knowledge of where they were going. Is this a hostage situation on the moon and you are the only humans involved?

Calling insults at the guy - a hostage taker is already highly stressed. Insulting them and winding them up sounds like a plan. I would also add, while you are standing there flapping your gums and involved in your clever street chatter - the hostage taker just might shoot you.

This set of posts must have been satirical in nature and I missed it.
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Old December 6, 2005, 12:52 PM   #30
too many choices!?
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I think Zak is dead on with this one!

You should try to close the distance, to get a better shot, circling to the gun side of the hostage taker... I had not even given this scenario much thought, but the points made by Zak and others about more B/G exposed by circling to his gun side make sensse. I wouldn't talk anymore than needed, as I would hopefully be looking for the shot, not exchanging witty banter with the perp. If you get close enough while circling to his strong side and he takes aim at you,(and you are lucky enough to get a right handed hostage taker), you can now more efficiently take aim at the B/G gun, head, or arm and if you miss by a little the hostage would hopefully only take one in the right shoulder, while you give the B/G a non standard response(read as: slide lock the SOB)....

A situation with Too Many Choices!? and too many options, none of which are really good
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Old December 6, 2005, 01:51 PM   #31
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The best thing to do is if the hostage becomes a "dead weight". Its pretty hard to hold up a 120+ pound person with one arm and the hostage will immediatly be out of the way for an easy double tap to the BGs head.
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Old December 6, 2005, 03:22 PM   #32
Glenn E. Meyer
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Hostage taker faced with circling dude:

"DON'T YOU MOVE"

Ok, what next - insult his mommy more?

Hostage takes aim at you - AND SHOOTS YOU. Does that preclude you then more efficient aim at him or her?
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Old December 6, 2005, 03:28 PM   #33
Zak Smith
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Action is faster than reaction, and the BG still has an OODA loop to process. Use those to your advantage. Dialog with the BG is a bad idea because it gives you more to process. He has already demonstrated deadly force, and you should act vigorously and decisively.

If you have a sight picture already, you can put a round where you want it faster than he can move his hands.

Static plans like "circle and go to his strong side" are all well and good, but being able to work the dynamics of the situation is an invaluable skill.
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Old December 10, 2005, 05:25 PM   #34
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The shot to the top lip below the nose from a head on angle will (in theory) enter the medula oblongata where all basic basic brain functions reside, pulmunary & circulatory, the bullet would probably sever the spine in the C1-C2 region turning the BG off like a switch. That said I would think it would be an extremely high risk shot. I would opt for the drop like a sack of potatoes trick myself.
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Old December 10, 2005, 08:53 PM   #35
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Dwight55,
I don't think anyone could have written a better example of what NOT to do, then you have here. Shoot the tires? only in the movies, Buzz a shot by his head?, you're kidding right. Scream and make the hostage angry, Not with anyone I care about as the hostage. If you act like that at a hostage scene SWAT may take YOU out, you'd be more of a threat then the BG. When you say "may god bless" do you mean for those that do as you suggest?

Last edited by PythonGuy; December 12, 2005 at 03:23 PM.
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:17 PM   #36
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I'm pretty sure Dwight was kidding back there:

Quote:
All the while, you are circling him, . . . sooner or later he has to get dizzy, trip, fall, anything that will give you the edge. It only comes to you, though, if you take control of the situation from the git-go.
Keep circling and get him dizzy. But he might get sick and :barf: on the hostage.
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:31 PM   #37
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It is great to discuss these scenarios on the internet and pound our chests like Tarzan in front of the computer. If it was your spouse that the bad guy has grabbed, are you really prepared to take the shot? I doubt that the bad guy would stand still for you to get a good shot. In fact, trying to flank him may simply result in him turning the gun on you and shooting at you (without any annoying hostages to block his bullets!). Meanwhile you will have to dodge bullets and return fire without accidentally killing your loved one. Please remember that even if you do not know the hostage, he or she is most likely someone's loved on and you had better not take a very risky shot. Now if your loved one has been a pain in your rear and you've got a good deal of insurance on them, just make sure you take out the hostage taker after you take out you "loved one"! Oh yeah... and pretend to be sad rather than thinking of how you will be spending the iinsurance money! (Just kidding!)

That said, there needs to be some clarification on this scenario. Is the bad guy pointing his gun at your loved one's head with his other arm around your loved one's neck? Dropping like a sack of potatoes will bend him over simultaneously and he will still likely get the shot off. You also can't drop like a sack of potatoes if the bad guy had a knife to your throat unless you happen to be wearing kevlar throat armor.

I believe that the most important thing in a hostage situation is to keep the hostage taker calm and the hostage alive. Popping a few rounds over his head (sorry Dwight) will probably result in him either flinching and popping your hostage in the melon or turning the gun on you. The best thing to do is let the professionals handle it. Make sure you don't lose sight of your hostage and call in the cavalry ASAP! A HRT SWAT officer with a high powered scope will do a whole lot better than your concealed carry piece in terms of accuracy and fire power.
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Old December 10, 2005, 10:35 PM   #38
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wayneinFL,

Sadly, Dwight55 is not kidding.
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Old December 10, 2005, 11:06 PM   #39
Weeg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
It is great to discuss these scenarios on the internet and pound our chests like Tarzan in front of the computer.

Touche'


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Old December 11, 2005, 01:19 PM   #40
aspen1964
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..just one little question...if the crook has a hostage in front of him and you are standing in the open(doing your intimidations and buzzrd circling, etc..)..what makes you think he won't just drill you and still have a hostage...
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Old December 11, 2005, 01:30 PM   #41
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Haven't any of you seen that movie?!?!?!? I think it was Speed. The correct answer is "SHOOT THE HOSTAGE! Take them out of the equasion!"
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Old December 11, 2005, 05:25 PM   #42
Glenn E. Meyer
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A situation like this was discussed in great length on the defunct Tatics List it was called the Cracker Barrel scenario.

The name came from a situation that I saw in Cracker Barrel. As I was paying the bill, I saw two cops come in and start looking around. I heard them ask the manager if he saw a person of a certain description. I told my wife to stop looking at the junk and we are out of here. She said :Why. I said "Cops".
We skeedaddled. As we were in our car we saw a slew of cars arrive and then officers flood the store and drag out some dude.

It turns out they were in hot pursuit and the guy was trying to blend with the customers.

The discussion revolved around what you would do if the guy saw the law coming and grabbed the wife. Well, if you saw the law coming you might wait. That's easy - if you trust the cops to save the day - different debate with pros and cons.

The bad branch was the guy comes in - no cops, wants a car, grabs wife and wants your keys and says he will take wife as hostage to be released later. Assume he has a weapon - gun or knife. Then wait. You didn't know the cops are on the way.

Shooting off a couple of rounds in Cracker and Barrel circling steathly around the displays is probably impossible. Add a screaming set of customers.

It was hard for serious practitioneers to chest pound and brag about head shots at 25 feet.
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Old December 12, 2005, 10:17 AM   #43
PythonGuy
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How about if you do a tactical "Chicken Dance" around the hostage taker until he gets so dizzy he drops his gun?? No good?, Hmmm, shoot in the air a dozen times while cursing his momma out?? No? dern.....
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