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Old February 17, 1999, 05:32 PM   #1
John Foley
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Heres another one for you guys. Say I had data, for a lead bullet, and wanted to apply it to a jacketed one of the same weight...would I use the same starter load or reduce it.
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Old February 17, 1999, 06:57 PM   #2
thaddeus
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I am relatively a newbie at this, having only been reloading for a couple years off and on, but let me take a swing at this for fun.

To answer your question: stay at the same load to be safe and work up if you like, but you will probably need to INCREASE your powder amount for a jacketed round.

Lead galls to the brass casing much more firmly than your jacketed rounds do. So, more pressure builds up before the lead bullet is discharged. Jacketed rounds exit more quickly with less backpressure because they do not sit as firmly into the casing. So, when you are reloading jacketed rounds, use more powder, or more importantly, when you are reloading lead rounds, use LESS powder.
Check out the charts for exactly how much to use, they will always specify whether the load is for lead or jacketed bullets. I am not sure if there is a strict equation for how much powder to use when translating from lead to jacketed or vice versa.
In my loads I use about %10 less powder for a lead round as compared to a jacketed round. But, I use the chart, not a calculater to figure out my loads, so don't use the "%10 rule"...use the chart!


thad
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Old February 17, 1999, 08:41 PM   #3
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Hello John,Hard cast Lead bullets will usually produce LESS pressure with the same charge weight than a jacketed bullet. This is a function of bullet hardness and friction in the bore. Even the hardest cast bullet can not come near the hardness of a jacketed one. I would also add that most starting load listings take this into account. If unsure, you can always contact the company. With handguns, you'll tend to see lead bullet loads in the manuals in the lower velocity ranges because mostly of a concern with possible leading rather than pressure concerns.

With Hard Cast bullets, greater speed and performance can be attained, in some cases, greater than jacketed with less pressure.

I have a cast bullet design that I can safely use data for a jacketed bullet weighing 30 grs. less. (the bullet design maximizes powder space and is gas checked)


I'll also say that a Soft lead slug can jack up pressure do to excess obturation in a heavy loading also causing heavy leading. The lead can actually vaporize under the higher pressure. And forget about any accuracy.


We are really dealing with projectile hardness and friction.A Hard Cast bullet(properly lubricated) will have less friction than a Jacketed bullet of the same weight. Thus usually, producing LESS pressure with a given loading.

[This message has been edited by Contender (edited February 17, 1999).]
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Old February 17, 1999, 09:06 PM   #4
Walt Welch
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Brasshopper; you must have been associating with some interesting people to have acquired the ideas you posted. Have you been going to HCI meetings for the free food?

The idea of lead bullets 'galling' in the brass case is not true. A primed case, with no powder, will send a .357 158gr. lead bullet all the way down into the forcing cone. You have to crimp, HEAVILY crimp .357 and .44 Mag lead bullet loads. Otherwise, you get the bullets creeping forward with recoil, and get uneven accuracy due to differences in 'bullet pull', the amount of force necessary to start the bullet moving.

Jacketed bullets require more force to engrave the rifling on them, and have a higher coefficient of friction than a properly lubricated lead bullet. Thus, jacketed bullets will, in general, all other things being equal, generate more pressure than lead bullets of the same design and weight. This difference may or may not be significant, depending on the caliber and load. With maximum or near maximum loads, prudence dictates REDUCING powder charge with ANY change in components. Walt
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Old February 17, 1999, 11:21 PM   #5
thaddeus
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DOH! Looks like I was very WRONG.

I think I better stick to learning on this forum and scratch any ideas of teaching


Brasshopper

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited February 17, 1999).]
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Old February 18, 1999, 01:06 AM   #6
Cheapo
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Based on previous careful study of the few loading manuals which list data for both jacketed and lead bullets, I sez:

At max loads, lead bullets tend to produce almost equal velocities with anywhere from 3 to 7% less powder.

Check it out. Winchester is one. Alliant is the other. I believe this is because the "upset" of the lead bullet continues during barrel accelleration, resulting in a longer-term "sideways" pressure of the driving surface against the barrel. Jacketed bullets obturate and get engraved, then stabilize, IM guestimating opinion.

BTW Walt, I tested some 125-gr Oregon Trails in .357 Mag using WSP primers and no powder. They didn't even budge from my moderate crimp.

The only time I've had a bullet & squib load (first experience with a Lee Pro 1000 as an errant youth--and my only .357 powderless loads--all 3 rounds...) lodge a bullet in the forcing cone was with a marginal sizer coupled with an aggressive expander.

Just my experiences.
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Old February 18, 1999, 03:42 AM   #7
Walt Welch
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No kidding, Cheapo. You are far beyond me, testing powderless loads (however unwillingly or unwittingly). I must confess that my experience was due to one solitary 148gr. LFWC, in my Model 28 S&W .357 Mag. the primer did indeed push the bullet part way into the forcing cone, which left the bullet partly in the chamber, and partly in the bbl., effectively and suddenly disabling the revolver completely. Which completely confounded the young shooter for a few minutes.

Thank you (Lord) I had a cleaning rod long enough to first push the bullet back into the chamber, then with the cylinder open, out of the cylinder, clearing it.

This was a very, very long time ago. Your crimps may be much sturdier than mine were at that time. Primers can reach pressures above 20,000 psi., however, so don't underestimate them.

This month's American Rifleman has a very interesting article on primers, from the beginning to latest lead free primers.

Cheapo; I must state one fact. While I was extremely poor and used many cost cutting measures in my early reloading days, I NEVER used a Lee loader (UGH!!) Walt
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Old February 18, 1999, 03:59 AM   #8
Walt Welch
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Thaddeus; brasshopper; do not think that you get off that easily. Your first love was guns, remember? All of us expect and demand that you take your swings with the rest of us.

The height of learning is to be able to teach. You never understand a subject as well as when you try to explain it to others.

Keep posting, keep swinging, keep offering opinions. THAT is how you learn the best. You learn the most from your mistakes, and remember, you and I (when I was a student) may have been mildly and transiently embarrassed by an error.

When I was an ER MD, and made a serious error, someone died. Over 20 years, I had a damn good average. Because I had the benefit of experience. And, I was not afraid to put my judgement up against anyone else's (although I certainly listened to everyone).

As Simon Bolivar said, 'Good judgement is the result of experience; and experience is the result of poor judgement.'

So, it is OK to be embarrassed and feel discomfort by making mistakes. DON'T let this turn you away from continuing to try, to reach, to expand your knowledge, to dare to learn.

Instead, embrace the pain, say to yourself, 'I will never make THAT mistake again', then move on. You will be miles ahead of the rest, as most people never learn that simple lesson: learning hurts. Change hurts. Life hurts.

For a while. Then, eventually, it gets absolutely wonderful. Try it. Walt
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Old February 18, 1999, 11:08 AM   #9
John Foley
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Thanks for all the responses. As long as all of you seem to check out this site I'll try to respond in one posting.

thaddeus: I have been reloading for twenty years, and I did what Cheapo did, only I wanted more input before I tried it...it also gives you guys a chance to hone your skills. Hey, I agree with Walt, don't be afraid to post your opinions, I have opened my mouth more then once without having all of the info. It is a learning process. BTW the 10% rule doesn't always hold true. Never reduce H110 below 3% of the listed powder charge.

Contender: I don't cast my own bullets, I get them from a friend. He tells me they are "hard" and the ones I use in my rifle are gas checked. Thanks for the info.

Walt: I sort of suspect that using a 125gr JRN bullet instead of a 125gr cast one (useing the cast starting data) would not create dangerous pressures in an 18" rifle barrel.

Cheapo: Thanks for the info. As I will be useing H110 powder, I may consider reducing the charge by 2% and work up from there. I'll have to think "on" it for a while.

I appreciate responses. I'm sure I'll be back
for more.



------------------
Yukon
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Old February 18, 1999, 07:45 PM   #10
Walt Welch
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Ah, yes the 3% rule with H-110. Well, I have been using this powder since the '60's with good results in .30 Carbine, .357 Mag., and .44 Mag.

The idea is to avoid the phenomenon, poorly understood, and impossible (so far) to intentionally duplicate, of detonation. The idea is that a greatly reduced charge of slow powder can detonate through some process, and ruin the gun. I spoke to one of the ballisticians at Hodgdon about this, and he said that he had had it occur to him while testing a particular load, but had been unable to reproduce the phenomenon.

There is one small problem: Check out the various sources of information for H-110, and you will find that the maximum loads vary by much more than 3%. So, who do you believe? I suspect Hodgdon is the correct answer, but it is somewhat of a crapshoot, nonetheless. Walt
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Old February 18, 1999, 11:59 PM   #11
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You would almost think that if a propellant for consumer use was this touchy to employ,that it would have been discontinued already just out of liability concerns. Some of the starting loads in Hodgdons manual are reduced over 3%. I see one for the 357 reduced over 7% to start.

As you stated Walt, I'm more inclined to believe Hodgdon.
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Old February 19, 1999, 02:18 AM   #12
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Uh, wasn't part of the problem with H110 and WW296 also a tendency for reduced charges to mysteriously fizzle out and leave a bullet in the middle of the bore?

This may not be true because I can't remember where I heard it, but...???

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Old February 19, 1999, 10:35 AM   #13
John Foley
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Hey, Walt, Contender and Cheapo,

Sorry to get you off on an H110 discussion, I am sure I will learn something from it anyway. The poweder I will be using is Accuracy Arms #9 not H110. As they use to say in the 60's...sorry about that!
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Old March 21, 1999, 08:04 AM   #14
RJ in Rome NY
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I also agree with Thaddeus...
I mistakenly did that the other way around
in my 9mm and found the lead bullets to shot
with a fair amount more recoil than the jacketed ones with the same charge... at least you doing it the other way around..
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Old March 21, 1999, 05:39 PM   #15
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I don't want to beat the dead H110 horse, but I do want to verify Hodgdon's wisdom when they say don't reduce loads for this powder.

I was loading some 357 rounds, and wanted to try some reduced loads for practice. I reduced the published H110 load by about 10%. Several shots worked just fine. But one of them went "phuup". Fortunately, I wasn't in a rapid fire situation so I noticed this. The bullet was just beyond the forcing cone. I doubt that 10 specs of powder had been ignited, the remainder was in the case/cylinder . That was the end of shooting out of that gun that day. I don't want to think about what would have happened if I tried to fire another round. Needless to say, I pulled the bullets from the remainder of that batch and learned a valuable lesson. The guys who write the books know whereof they speak, especially when they give a specific guideline for a specific component.
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Old March 25, 1999, 05:59 PM   #16
Cheapo
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Walt:

I've posted elsewhere about some *intentional* experiments two or three months ago with powderless loads. At least with 125-gr bullets in .357 Mag with my dies, the bullets will stay put.

But with what I loaded on my friend's press in the old college days, the JHP was firmly lodged in the forcing cone with maybe 1/8-inch left in the cylinder. Once the RO declared the thing inoperable, we had to take it upstairs to get a cleaning rod to muzzle-load the thing back into the cylinder, then dump the remaining two rounds.

But I think our other poster's experience shows the possible danger with non-mag primers and hardball powders like H110 and WW296. Since the case volume is taken up with powder, it's far more easy for the primer charge to blow the bullet out into the barrel if the powder fails to light up for *any* reason.

Thus, I'll shoot my 296 loads accidentally loaded with WSPs in practice, but *never* for defense.

And even with the WSPs, they go 75 fps faster than my jacketed loads with identical powder charge. No pressure signs, and almost every case falls out of the upturned cylinder without any assistance from the ejector! :-).
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Old March 25, 1999, 06:39 PM   #17
James K
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I will go along with Walt on the lead vs. jacketed. Put another way, and all else being equal, achieving x velocity with a jacketed bullet will require more pressure than achieving x velocity with a lead bullet. The thing is, they are generally used for different purposes. Lead bullets, even hard cast, are not the preferred choice for high velocity loads. Too much lead is left in the barrel/cylinder throat/forcing cone. Best to use cast lead bullets for low velocity practice/target loads and jacketed for high velocity loads.

As for no-powder loads, I have tested these in both a .38 Special and a .357 with 125gr. jacketed bullets, lead semi wadcutters, magnum primers, standard primers, etc. The bullets all exited the cylinder; all but one prevented it from turning. That one, a semi wadcutter with magnum primer, went far enough into the bore to have allowed another round to be fired. My limited test was not, of course, comprehensive, and I can't say bullets wil never stay in the case. Still, any squib load should be cause to stop shooting, even if the gun does not hang up. We all know that no-powder loads are a no-no.

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Old March 26, 1999, 10:56 AM   #18
John Foley
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On 2/17/99 I posted the following: "Say I had data, for a lead bullet, and wanted to apply it to a jacketed one of the same weight...would I use the same starter load or reduce it." Most of the replies I received were sort of off the subject. So I will try to be more specific.

I have data for a 130gr .30 caliber cast bullet for use in the M1 carbine. I want to use a 125gr jacketed bullet instead. My question is; can I take the starting load data, for the cast bullet, and use it as the starting point with the jacketed bullet?


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Old March 26, 1999, 01:38 PM   #19
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The official answer should be no. But,from my experience, I would say you can do that for this particular bullet set and case. I would definitely say no for most any other rifle cartridge. The 5 gr. difference in the 2 bullets won't make much difference in the powder charge.

Referencing Lyman #47, they have data for the M1 using a 110 gr. jacketed and a 113 gr. lead. The starting charge for the lead bullet is consistently equal to or lower than the jacketed bullet. So I think you should be on safe ground using similar data for 130 gr. lead vs 125 gr. jacketed.

My only concern would be how reliable your data for the 130 gr. lead is. If you are using the Lyman manual (they have data for a 130 gr lead), then you are still on safe ground because those starting loads with the listed powders are safe for a 125 gr jacketed bullet. However, I would be concerned if you have data for powders like H110 or W296 and are attemping to guestimate starting loads.
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Old April 6, 1999, 03:25 PM   #20
Cheapo
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Actual experience. Just checked again this morning on the Chrono.

.357 Mag
WW 296
Charge more than Win says, .5 gr under per one book, .5 gr over another book. (I'm backing off .5 gr next time around)

Oregon Trail 125-gr TC: 1517.9 fps, ES 35.8
Hornady 125-gr XTPs: 1432 fps, ES @ 60 IIRC
Win bulk 125-gr JHPs: 1432 fps, ES I don't remember.

So, if it takes MORE pressure to get a higher velocity, which bullet is more likely to be at max pressure?

BTW, half the cases fall out by gravity, shaking alone ejects 4 or 5 out of 6.

I think that's why most manuals show lower powder charges for lead than for jacketed. It's not just a matter of avoiding loads that lead the barrel a lot.
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