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Old September 26, 2005, 05:18 PM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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from stephen426...
Quote:
I agree with you, but you need to qualify your statement. I don't know how many people are fast enough to draw a weapon from concealment and shoot someone who already has a gun pointed at you. Besides (as far as I could tell from the video), the bad guy was behind a counter and not within gun grab distance. One other thing to consider is the accomplice who may or may not be armed.
No sir. I have no need to qualify my statement. I don't know where you got the idea from my post that I was stipulating a weapon be drawn from conceal and that the person making the draw would be able to defeat a gunman with a drawn gun pointing at the person attempting to defend himself.

While I realize this is largely a gun forum, there are at least a few people here that are not of the sad mindset that the only way a person can defend him/herself is with a gun. The statements I made were generalized, simply trying to hammer home the fact that even with full compliance, there is no guarentee you will not be harmed.

As near as I can tell from your way of thinking, because the clerk had no opportunity to draw his own weapon (if he had one), he was doomed, at least at the time he was shot. However, the clerk did not need a gun in this case. The gunman just about put his pistol in the clerk's pocket. There were several seconds were the gunmanwas off balance, arm extended, where the clerk could have grabbed his arm/hand and twisted the gun from it. You could not ask for a better setup as the gunman was just about handing over a firearm that he could not possibly hoped to hold onto if the clerk had taken action.
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Old September 26, 2005, 05:25 PM   #27
leadcounsel
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Well, if he's working in a convenience store he probably can't afford body armor. But, my vote is to wear level II body armor. A good used one can be bought for $300 on the web.

I also would carry. Jobs like that are not hard to find and the worst they can do is fire you if they find out. If I saw someone suspicious come in, I'd ready my gun and feign cooperation and blast them at the first chance.

In this video it's tough to say what to do. Sometimes a ballistic vest is your best bet. It's like a seatbelt. No matter what you do to avoid an accident, you're glad to have one when the accident is unavoidable.

IF the store had a no guns policy, I'd sue the store for prohibiting me from defending myself or hiring an armed guard.
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Old September 28, 2005, 11:18 AM   #28
stephen426
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Double Naught Spy,

Quote:
As near as I can tell from your way of thinking, because the clerk had no opportunity to draw his own weapon (if he had one), he was doomed, at least at the time he was shot. However, the clerk did not need a gun in this case. The gunman just about put his pistol in the clerk's pocket. There were several seconds were the gunmanwas off balance, arm extended, where the clerk could have grabbed his arm/hand and twisted the gun from it. You could not ask for a better setup as the gunman was just about handing over a firearm that he could not possibly hoped to hold onto if the clerk had taken action
The clerk looks to be an older male. Do you think he can match the strength or reflexes of a hyped up young male? (Assuming he is hyped up from the rush of doing something illegal) You need to look at the people involved. If it was the shooter who was the clerk and the old guy who was the robber, I might say it was possible. The first guy distracted the clerk and the shooter clearly had the jump on the clerk. All the shooter had to do was back up and he would be out of range since the counter seperated them. Up to that point, the clerk probably though he would not get shot if he cooeprated. Heck, it wasn't his money anyways.

By making an agressive movement against a physically superior assailant, he would have provoked a greater reaction from the assailant (more likely to shoot). Like I said, it was a bad tactical situation. He was distracted and then flanked. He had no cover, and even if he could have dropped to the ground, the shooter could have leaned over and shot him. He was physically inferior to his attacker. I say this is a sad situation in which the clerk acted in the only way he could have. If you advocate that all clerks resist no matter what the situation, I think we will soon face a national shortage of convenience store clerks. Armed robbery is still a much lesser charge than murder or attempted muder. I'd really like to see some statistics on how many people are shot if they comply with the robber's demands.
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Old October 1, 2005, 12:40 PM   #29
steve154
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Stephen426

A little drill for ya...take a triple checked empty pistol and point it at me in the exact same manner as in this video. I know when I am going to move, you do not. I bet you that 10 out of ten times that I can grab the gun and have it stripped from your grasp before you can pull the trigger, or pull back. I could teach you the actual grab in less than a minute and you would be able to do the same thing to me. The absolute last thing this mope is thinking is that the victim would grab for the gun. The victim gets the gun and hopefully starts ventilating both mopes as they come over the counter, if they do.
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Old October 1, 2005, 01:55 PM   #30
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I think the point that is trying to be made is that in such a situation, it's better to TRY to do something then it is to do nothing.

You say that trying to do something may escalate the problem and that the criminal would be more adapt to shoot.

I don't know if you watched the video, the criminal DID shoot.

When a person points a gun at another, I'm pretty sure that the person doing the pointing isn't asking the clerk out for a beer and a bite to eat. When a person aims a firearm at something, they are planning to destroy it (remember the rules of gun handling).

As for working at a c-store, that may be the only job that they could have gotten, or maybe they own it. Not all that work behind the counter are just low paid clerks but the owner and their families trying to make a life for themselves.

I think my cold is coming back, I may just go back to bed because my get up and go has got up and gone .

Wayne
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Old October 1, 2005, 07:57 PM   #31
WOD
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Disgusting

I cannot believe that those guys shot the old guy. It is utterly subhuman :barf:

The most disgusting part was seeing that woman look at the old guy and just meander off. My only consolation to this sick video is that there is probability that it is a good fake.
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Old October 1, 2005, 08:29 PM   #32
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Here's an idea...

Quote:
I believe FBI stats are abot 40% of the time the BG will shoot you no matter what.
The solution? SHOOT THEM FIRST. Problem solved.
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Old October 3, 2005, 08:04 PM   #33
DobermansDoItGoofy
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If I have to talk to a potential perp...

I smile and in a friendly oblique but 'loud and friendly' way - point to the ceiling with my left hand(while sneakily reaching for my .38 with my right hand) announce 'We're all on Camera. We have the BEST CAMERA SECURITY SYSTEM in the USA!' That's if no gun is already drawn
by the perp. If a gun is already there - I do the same thing but much faster and shoot 2x's to boot! I don't work at a convenience store or as a cashier...
and that waaaaaaaay I really avoid such horrible situations... The sad truth is that a real predator will catch you off guard no matter how many times you practice at a range... Prevention is best! A gun is unfortunately more of a last ditch than a 'tool of prevention.'(there are always exceptions) A perp might view a camera as a perplexing unsolvable mystery - but see a clerk wearing a .38 as a kind of 'macho challenge.'
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Old October 4, 2005, 10:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
I believe FBI stats are abot 40% of the time the BG will shoot you no matter what.
I would like to see those stats. No where can I find that 40% of robberies involving the bad guy with a firearm results in the robbers shooting.

Quote:
Do you think he can match the strength or reflexes of a hyped up young male? (Assuming he is hyped up from the rush of doing something illegal) You need to look at the people involved.
I did look at the people. Yes, the old man could have beat the reflexes of the younger guy and could have done so quite easily. If you watch, the robber does a poor job of watching the clerk's hands and there is a goodly amount of movement between the clerk and robber around the gun.

So maybe the bad guy is hyped up on something as you suggest. What is he hyped on? Are his senses actually enhanced? Is he actually able to fully focus on what is going on? The guy could be on a lot of things, many of which would not be reaction-beneficial.

So yes, the clerk most definitely could have defeated the ability of the robber to shoot him.

As for the second guy, he never showed a weapon.
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Old October 4, 2005, 10:29 PM   #35
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I believe it is summed up by mindset.

Simply put, I have made up my mind that I am NOT going to allow myself to be murdered or hurt without taking a good sized chunk out of the BG. Barring a head shot, if someone gets the drop on me I WILL DRAW AND FIRE, until I hurt the BG as much as he had hurt me. If I am shot fatally--so be it!

I will NOT go gently into that good night.

I will NOT simply roll over and die.

Whoever does it had best bring their lunch and get their affairs in order. I will NOT make it easy for them. Even if I have to crawl after them and BITE, I WILL fight until my last breath.

Unfortunately, I believe that the majority of people simply freeze in the presence of a firearm.
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Old October 4, 2005, 11:35 PM   #36
tanksoldier
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Just as those who CC practice with their carry weapon, you also should practice other forms of defense. It's true that a gun won't help you every time. I knew a literal "little old lady" who probably would have handed me my butt if I ever "attacked" her... she was up every morning at 0500 doing Tai Chi in the park... excellent exercise, and useful as a defensive art when properly instructed in that aspect of the art.

Quote:
The clerk looks to be an older male. Do you think he can match the strength or reflexes of a hyped up young male?
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