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Old September 19, 2005, 12:01 AM   #1
Ramcharger
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Best distance for HD practice?

10 feet, 15 feet or 25 feet?
I used to practice at 21 feet but I realized the longest distance in my house is only 10 feet. So i started placing the targets and stuff I shoot at 10 feet.
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Old September 19, 2005, 12:06 AM   #2
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I think you've answered your own question!
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Old September 19, 2005, 12:16 AM   #3
Nnobby45
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Average shooting distances inside homes is less than 10 feet. Often times at contact distance. Why not open up your practice and place targets at different distances? That includes multiple targets, using cover, reloading. Your house may be one dimensional, but your skills shouldn't be.
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Old September 19, 2005, 12:29 AM   #4
Russ538
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I'd continue practicing at 21 feet. I figure if you master 21 feet (or more), there's no question you'll be able to accurately hit the center of your target at 10 feet.
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Old September 19, 2005, 12:42 AM   #5
Nnobby45
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Quote:
I'd continue practicing at 21 feet. I figure if you master 21 feet (or more), there's no question you'll be able to accurately hit the center of your target at 10 feet.
May I suggest Gabe Suarez's new DVD on Close Quarters Gun Fighting", for one. Things are not the same at 21 ft. as they are real close. Neither are the skills and tactics you'll need. You may need to use these skills before you can even draw your weapon, not to mention shooting at spittin' distance.

If you were correct, there wouldn't be a number of good tapes by excellent instructors dealing with extreme close quarters fighting.
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Old September 19, 2005, 01:04 AM   #6
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I think we're talking about two different things. Speaking only about standing and shooting at a target 10 feet away should be easier to hit than 20 feet. I'm only talking accuracy, and how practicing at distance will generally improve close range accuracy.

Seems like Gabe focuses on many different things, such as avoiding retreat, moving and dodging, rapid fire, quick draw and hand to hand combat. I was talking only about accuracy. I guess what should really be practiced for HD are the topics gabe brings up:

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57022
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Old September 20, 2005, 07:15 PM   #7
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I'm gonna +1 with Russ and nnobby here. At 10ft in a confined space like your home, the attacker has the advantage. Especially if he surprises you. You could be Billy the Kid and still not outdraw a determined attacker coming at you from a distance of 10ft. He'll be on top of you before you have your hand on your holster.

Practice shooting at close distance but also practice movement and evasion techniques that will allow you to get to your weapon. At 10ft, you're almost guaranteed to have to make some kind of unarmed response to an attack before you can unholster your gun and fire at an attacker. Granted, if you're at home you may not have your gun holstered, but you'll still have to get to it before your attacker is on top of you. Alwyas be multi-dimensional in your approach to self-defense. Don't put it your eggs in one basket and only practice defense via your gun. Close distance encounters may be too close for you to react quick enough with your gun alone..

Add body alarm reaction to the scenario and now we go down a whole different road!..
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Old September 23, 2005, 09:32 PM   #8
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Hmmmm! I not sure I'd give up practicing at 7 yards. That's a minimal distance to keep you sharp with sighted fire. Do you include point shooting in your practice sessions? I think you should. Some key points about ECQB shooting:

Keep the weapon slightly forward of and tucked into your side. Place your, 'support hand' just below your heart and continue to touch your heart with that raised thumb. (Unless you have to do an arm sweep.) Keep your weight on your back foot as much as possible. If you must move, shuffle, and slide your lead foot slowly forward.

The best ECQB scenario is to remain still and force the other guy to come at you. There's an old rule that says, 'The one who has to move - loses!' Use cover whenever possible, but, try not to engage while standing in a door or hallway. (The narrow vertical sides help your opponent to line up his sights better.)

Remember to stand about a foot off the wall, too. Fairbairn's old book, 'Shooting To Live' is a great source of information on inside recreation techniques. (If you can find it!) I've always liked the part about going horizontal in order to minimize your target area - You know, like, lying across a bed or table while firing! Lastly, watch your breathing - You don't want to suddenly gasp (either in or out) if you're suddenly attacked.
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Old September 23, 2005, 10:11 PM   #9
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7 feet is what i practice for hd. and as far as being able to hit 21 feet so you can hit closer that is totally the opposite. It is harder the closer you are believe me and if you are ever in that sittuation you will understand. it is hard to explain but in my experiences closer is harder well when you are shooting at humans that shoot back instead of a paper target.
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Old September 23, 2005, 10:50 PM   #10
Russ538
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My mistake. I don't often shoot closer than 10 feet, and certainly not with a target shooting back. I just figured if practicing at 14 yards helped improve accuracy at 7 yards, that it'd work the same for 7 yards and 3 yards. Maybe I'll have try out this close range shooting next time.
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Old September 23, 2005, 11:12 PM   #11
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I know it makes perfect sense why it should work shooting from far, and close being easier to hit. and everytime i went to the range the closer the target was the better I did, you know that is a given and an understood fact of life, but for some reason and only god knows why but it is totally different, when it is the real thing. I head many people say that back before i went to the big sand box for the first time and I thought no way that makes no sense, and truthfully it still dosen't but that is the way it is. But the easy way around shooting made harder at closer range is the good ole' 12 gague with some 00 buck!
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Old September 23, 2005, 11:39 PM   #12
Russ538
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Interesting to know. I hope I'm never in the situation where I have to find out what close range combat is like. Shotgun sounds like a good solution, though.

BTW, thank you for defending this great country. You guys deserve more thanks than you get.
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Old September 24, 2005, 12:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
10 feet, 15 feet or 25 feet?
I used to practice at 21 feet but I realized the longest distance in my house is only 10 feet. So i started placing the targets and stuff I shoot at 10 feet.
If the longest distance in your home is 10 feet, then you either live in a small cabin, shed, or a very tiny home. In a square room, the longest distance will be the diagonal between opposite corners, so the room is only slightly more than 7x7 feet.

Quote:
I'd continue practicing at 21 feet. I figure if you master 21 feet (or more), there's no question you'll be able to accurately hit the center of your target at 10 feet.
Quote:
Things are not the same at 21 ft. as they are real close. Neither are the skills and tactics you'll need. You may need to use these skills before you can even draw your weapon, not to mention shooting at spittin' distance.

If you were correct, there wouldn't be a number of good tapes by excellent instructors dealing with extreme close quarters fighting.
While it is probably true in most cases that shooting at 10 feet versus 21 are probably not going to be addressed in the same way, whether or not there are instructors offering tapes on ECQB does not substantiate that applied shooting won't be handled in the same or can't be handled in the same way. As I understand it, ECQB distance was arm's reach.

Quote:
Keep the weapon slightly forward of and tucked into your side. Place your, 'support hand' just below your heart and continue to touch your heart with that raised thumb. (Unless you have to do an arm sweep.) Keep your weight on your back foot as much as possible. If you must move, shuffle, and slide your lead foot slowly forward.
What is being described here is retention shooting and it is for ECQB where you are in contact with your aggressor or feel your aggressor is within arm's reach. Ten feet away should be far enough that retention shooting isn't going to be beneficial to you as you won't need to be protecting your gun from the aggressor and you probably are not going to be able to shoot as well from the gun retention position as you would with point or sighted shooting.

Quote:
There's an old rule that says, 'The one who has to move - loses!'
While that may be an old rule, I have not ever heard it and quite possibly the reason why is because it doesn't make sense or have any real justification. Think about it. If you are caught in the open by a gunman, failure to evade and/or retreat to cover may be what causes you to lose as you have no protection from incoming rounds (no cover) and you are making yourself an easy stationary target. Motion, speed, and evasionary movement (e.g. serpentine running) all serve to better your chances of not getting shot as compared/over standing still.

In looking more closely at the rule, my guess is that it was not a rule devised for gun fighting. Instead, it seems to be the rule for a game of chicken where the one that loses his nerve first and bolts away is the one deemed to be the loser. Gunfighting is in no way comparable to the game of chicken.

I find it interesting that several of you mentioned the draw and the fact that you won't be able to outdraw your aggressor. That may or may not be true or applicable. If your intruder has a holstered gun when you encounter him, you may very well be able to outdraw him. If he already has his gun out and you don't means you can't outdraw him since his gun is already out.

Except for a couple of circumstances, I am having trouble figuring out why you would have to outdraw a bad guy in your own home. These are all I can guess
- his gun is drawn
- the intruder was in your house and waiting on your return and so his gun will be out when you make entry.
- the intruder clandestinely entered your home with you there and already has his gun out when he encounters you.

In other cases, either you are going to be aware of the intrusion (breaking window, kicked in door, etc.). As it happens, you should be unholstering if you are carrying a holstered gun and quite likely the gun will be out and ready before the attacker comes into your field of view. It may not be possible to get the gun out before you encounter an intruder if he gains entry into the room where you are located.

Quote:
I've always liked the part about going horizontal in order to minimize your target area - You know, like, lying across a bed or table while firing!
While going prone or horizontal may reduce your personal target area, it does have problems. First, in this position, the COM shot presented to your intruder is your head.

Going prone is not a substitute for cover and is a bad choice if you use it instead of available cover.

Going prone or horizontal also means that you have hampered your ability to move quickly. You will be much slower to getting up and transiting to another location than if you were already standing.

If you are going prone or horizontal around a bed, why in the world would you choose to do this ON the bed? Not only do you not have cover in that position, you don't have any concealment either. So you are caught there with limited mobility, no cover, and no concealment. You are a proverbial sitting duck, but a sitting duck that can shoot back. They only thing going for you is the reduced target size and as noted above, that can be problematic as well.

If you are going to go prone on or around the bed (because you have no available cover to use), then do so from a position behind the bed, aimed peeking around the bed's corner and in position to ambush your intruder. As only a very small portion of you and your gun will be visible to the intruder when he enters your room, he isn't likely to spot you right away, not like he could if you were in the open on the bed. Part of the reason he won't spot you right off is because he probably isn't going to be expecting you in that location.

While the focus of this thread has been on shooting in the interior of the home, not all home defense shootings take place in the home. You may be out in the yard or garage when you have to shoot. You may need to be shooting from the interior of your home to somebody outside your home. As such, only very short range shooting practice isn't going to have you adequately prepared for shooting at longer distances or shooting well at longer distances.

For example, in the case of the North Hollywood bank robbery, LAPD cops only trained/qualified out to 25 yards as I recall and did not train for head shots, or not regularly. So, when fighting the armored robbers and being told they were wearing heavy armor and that the officers should be aiming at the head, distances being 50-100 yards before the robbers went on the move, after hundreds of rounds fired at the robbers, no shots struck the robbers' heads.

The problem here was that the officers were trained at distances where they would most likely be involved in a shooting, 25 yards and less. So when they were put in a position where they needed to shoot very well at 2-4 times their normal distance, they did very poorly.
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Old September 24, 2005, 01:39 AM   #14
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With what?
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Old September 24, 2005, 09:19 AM   #15
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...Pistols and being able to hit the necessary targets (heads) at the extended ranges. With several hundred rounds fired by the LAPD, something like 900 rounds, plus the radio calls from early on saying to shoot for the heard, I honestly would have expected one or more shots to have randomly been able to strike the heads of the suspects, but it never happened. Of course, they may have aimed for the head, but since their sights were not set up for shooting to POA at that distance, the shots would have all been below the head. No doubt to make head shots at the ranges involved, the officers would have had to aim at some location above the heads of the suspects in order to get a hit.

Most had Beretta 92s, but if you watch the actual video that shows officers lined up behind police cars and shooting, you will see a few different models of handgun.
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:17 AM   #16
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I had practiced shooting from 7 meters like with the cowboy style using a single action revolver. My target is a steel popper. One of the shooter scolded me that I should not do that bec. the bullets may bounce back. I was amazed or surprised where he got that idea. I've been doing that for the past 10 years.

My favorite distance is from 10 to 15 meters, besides, if we really shoot for self defense there is no need to practice in from 25 to 30 meters as I usually saw on the range. Some shooters think they are so good if they shoot too far. But to my own opion, the 10 to 15 meters is good enough, in real scenario the 7 to 10 is more practical to practice. If a bad guy is in 25 to 30 meters perhaps, I won't shoot him anymore, I consider him as a no threat to me already.

Just my own humble opinion.
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:59 AM   #17
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I do my handgun practice at 10 ft with point shooting. After a lot of practice, I'm pretty good at it and have confidence in my ability. 20' or more is shotgun time. Backyard is 9mm carbine time. Am I wrong?
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Old September 24, 2005, 11:12 AM   #18
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Ahhh, DNS, don’t take yourself sooo … seriously! Let me tell you something, my friend, I didn’t learn to play these games yesterday. If this guy is living in a max. distance environment of 10 feet, then, he darn well better learn a thing or two about ECQB techniques. (Something you appear to be a little, ‘light’ on, right now.)

With regard to your comments on moving first? Well, I’m positive you’ve never been there (and back) or you’d have quickly learned better. It’s for exactly this reason that houses are breached by multiple in-line operators. The Israelis started it back in the 60’s; and the practice is, now, universal. Since you missed the point, let me say it again: In an enclosed environment, the guy who has to move is ALWAYS at a disadvantage – Period!

Greater minds than yours or mine have spent a whole lot of time figuring out what to do with guns and people in tightly confined spaces. The, ‘going horizontal’ technique originated with Sykes and Fairbairn; later on it was widely propagated by Applegate. Your comment about not being able to move quickly is, to be perfectly blunt, ridiculous. Tight spaces ain’t about moving quickly. (‘Why’ would you want to do that?)

Maybe compressing your target profile ain’t the best thing since bulletproof vests to you; but it sure as heck beats tossing a coin to decide which corner you’re going to be standing in when the room is breached! (Especially when you consider that the first and second men into the room are going to do, ‘opposite corner/blindside corner’ immediately upon entering.)

In small spaces, and in the dark, the usual keyboard commando stuff does not work well; but, hey, if I ever have to go up against somebody under these conditions, I sure hope he’s thinking like you because, then, he ain’t ever going to know what hit him!
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