The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 7, 2005, 12:09 PM   #1
rmagill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 142
Shooting accurately while moving

I did a search and I could not find anything that really helped. Recently, just to see how I would do, I tried firing a pistol while walking up to the target. I started at 25yrds and out of 30 shots (I tried this more than once) and only 15 even hit the paper. Normally, I can get groups within the 8 ring out to 15yrds, and out to the 6 @ 25yrds on a NRA 50ft. pistol target.

So here is the question: are there any good techniques to practice accurately firing a pistol while moving and, if so, what are they? Thanks.
rmagill is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 04:34 PM   #2
Dre_sa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Left coast
Posts: 587
i found getting into a semi- crouch (bent knees leaning forward slightly) helps, but it takes practise to keep the muzzle pointing at the target and not bobbing up and down.


oh and use point shooting (or a variation thereof) while doing this

Last edited by Dre_sa; September 8, 2005 at 04:52 PM. Reason: adding something
Dre_sa is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 04:47 PM   #3
Henry Baker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2005
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 199
I don't shoot while walking much, but I find that whene shooting at fleiting targets from a moving platform you can't rely on sites as much. At least I can't, I keep both eyes open, concentrate on the target, and "feel" where I am aiming. This works best for me. Incase you're wondering my brothers and I let the top down on our Jeep and shoot off it while driving around our ranch. Loads of fun!

Hope this helps,
Henry Baker
Henry Baker is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 05:08 PM   #4
Wyo Cowboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2005
Location: Northern Wyoming
Posts: 343
About the only technique which I have found that works is lots and lots of ammo fired while moving. Very few places train for movement and few ranges in metro areas will allow for firing while moving. If you can't find an "open range" try finding one which has the computerized target systems. It won't help with lateral but it can be used to simulate an advancing attacker. Another suggestion is join IPSC or USPPC or the like.
Wyo Cowboy is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 05:48 PM   #5
jcoiii
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2002
Location: TN
Posts: 556
The thing that helped me most while at the academy was this: focus on your sight picture. No matter what I was doing otherwise, or how I was moving, I kept thinking to myself "keep sight picture". I focused on making sure my sights stayed on target that everything else took care of itself. On just the moving portion of our training, I hit 48/48 (on the body of the BG on the target). I don't know if that will help you, but it certainly did me.
__________________
Truth knows no political correctness.

I do not aim with my hand.......
jcoiii is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 06:22 PM   #6
bdc
Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Posts: 60
shooting on the move

Go to Turnipseedtechnique.com and quickshoot.com. Order the video. It will demonstrate shooting on the move. You will not learn shooting on the move from simply watching the video. One thing depicted is a middle aged woman accurately shooting an MP5 submachine while walking - she was trained in proper skeletal alignment and this was her first handling of a submachine gun.

I have studied and trained under KT for years and do shoot on the move. Success is a function of skeletal alignment.

In one instance, I saw a 17 year old trained. He had never shot a shotgun. He wore size 15 shoes, so you have an idea of his size. At the end of 4 hours, he was able to do the following with an 870 pump shotgun:

1. walking in from 25 yards without stopping and firing from the hip with slugs, hit alternative vertical angle iron used to hold targets;

2. with the 870 shoulder-mounted, walk and shoot called color balloons from a released helium filled pod of various colored balloons.

After taking a number of classes, and with permission, I shot a DCM meet 100 yard standing leg while walking and people were amazed. In the real world, you want to be moving while shooting instead of standing like a stationary target.

KT lives in Chandler, Az and teaches classes in Los Angeles and Phoenix.
bdc is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 07:24 PM   #7
JuniorCommando
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: North Carolina southern state where Class 3's banned!!
Posts: 30
use a laser sight
JuniorCommando is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 08:01 PM   #8
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,515
The previous post seemed a little unusual. I have no idea what was meant by success being a function of skeletal alignment. I find that firing success is a function of sight alignment. Skeletal alignment is going to be ever-changing in the fluidity of a person on the move. You can limit the motion of some aspects, but for everything that is locked up, the more motion is impeded.

Later, the statement is made that in real world, you want to be moving and shooting instead of being a stationary target. Advice like that is often given out as if it is some sort of fact when it is not. It may be quite foolish to leave cover so that you will be on the move while shooting, for example.

I am not sure of the value of teaching a person to shoot a shotgun with slugs from the hip at 25 yards. It is a neat trick and that is all that it is unless the kid trains very regularly with this unsighted method, like weekly. I don't doubt it can be done, but I also don't doubt that the first time that student tries to repeat that drill outside of class that he is going to have an overly high percentage of errant rounds that fail to hit the target and potentiall fail to be stopped by the backstop. A 12 ga. slug is a very dangerous projectile to lose track of while firing from the hip. Since talking real life here, then what is the situation where you will be moving with your 12 ga. shotgun and shooting targetst at 25 yards? Let me guess. It is where you are carrying a fallen comrad over your shoulders and your opponent has his back up against a tall bluff face. The reason you are closing distance on the opponent is because he guards the secret stairway to the top of the bluff and you need to access that stairway right away in order to get you and your fallen comrad out of the immediate area before some more significant or larger lethal threat acts on the situation, such as the time bomb that will go off at any second. How am I doing?

Shooting on the move involves a lot of variations human bipedal locomotion has a lot of variation ranging from slow walking, fast walking, jog, trot, and sprint. It may be forward, lateral, or backwards. It will be heavily influenced by terrain, obstacles, and other environmental conditions. People have success with the bent-knee crouch walking while shooting, but often are unable to attain needed speed and have trouble adapting the technique to uneven terrain or small ostacles.

Surprisingly, a lot of people are fairly good shooters if they simply forgot all the SWAT things they have seen on TV and simply walk normally while shooting. The problems here are that the person presents a larger upright target, is also fixed into a given speed, and usually has problems negotiating obstacles while shooting. The advantage is that it can be used more effectively and with less mental stress by a person who doesn't practice every week with the local SWAT team.

I did check out the site, but I am not ordering the video. I liked the page that showed the "impossible" things that can be done with a shotgun. I have no doubt a 240 man can shoot a shotgun rapid fire while standing on one foot, or do it while sitting in a chair with his feet off the ground. The use of terms like "impossible" usually implies some sort of miracle facet to such methods. They come and go, always promising great things, but few ever command anything but a tiny following.

I liked the fact that his technique is the only "bio-mechanically correct" shooting technique. In other words, Turnipseed is the only prophet by which a shooter can get to shooting nirvana. This is one of those sorts of phrases that is a non-falsifiable techno jargon statement that is meant to sound really impressive, and it does, but has no actualy value or meaning. I don't believe Turnipseed is a medical doctor or Ph.D. working in biomechanics. If he is, he failed to list these credentials. There is no defined or recognized criterion of what is or is not biomechanically correct when it comes to unnatural behaviors such as shooting a gun. Turnipseed may have a fairly ergonomically positive technique, but being ergonomic does not mean that it is biomechanically correct.

It may be a nifty thing to learn, but each of the 'new' shooting methods that come out usually have some beneficial aspects, some that don't seem to make any sense at all, and generally die of with time or get portions adopted into mainline techniques, but are rarely taken full bore. They never get taken full bore because they don't actually live up to the all the claims and hype.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 08:58 PM   #9
23Skidoo
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2005
Location: Red State
Posts: 89
Good post but I did have an issue with this:
Quote:
Later, the statement is made that in real world, you want to be moving and shooting instead of being a stationary target. Advice like that is often given out as if it is some sort of fact when it is not. It may be quite foolish to leave cover so that you will be on the move while shooting, for example.
Generally people involved in shootings are not starting behind cover (I guess sometimes they could). Often it is out in the open, on a street. In those circumstances moving seems like a wise move to make yourself a more difficult target. Obviously, as you say, if you are behind cover then use it.
I think shooting on the move at a moving target is both one of the most difficult tasks and probably the skill that I would want the most in real life as that is what tends to happen. When shots are fired people move.
23Skidoo is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 09:52 PM   #10
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Without getting to metaphysical, I want to say that shooting well on the move involves practicing shooting on the move. A person has to loosen the training restraints he has recieved and just shoot. You cannot shoot on the move from an Isoceles stance, or a Weaver stance. I practice shooting on the move frequently, and am pretty fair at it. On a good day I can reliably hit two paper plates at about 15-20 feet while moving. On a bad day I can scare those plates pretty badly. Nobody can shoot as well on the move as they can stationary. You have to accept this in yourself. Sight alignment and shooting with a flash sight picture should be second nature. You should be using a gun that comes to sights naturally for you. Then it is all trigger control. Being able to control that trigger and drop the hammer before your movement takes your gun off target is the key. This is why I prefer a 1911 to other guns; you just have less chance for error with trigger control. For me, using a DA revolver on the move is much more difficult. Shooting on the move is like taking a jump shot vs a free throw in basketball. You have to be in the groove, confident, and willing to take the shot. It also helps to have the practice under your belt.
My two pesos.

Mr. Turnipseed's pages look interesting. I'm thinking about a different kind of shooting, I think.

Lasersights? If you can'y hold a front sight on target, how are you going to hold a laser on target?
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 9, 2005, 10:23 AM   #11
Lycanthrope
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 1,752
Shoot USPSA or IDPA matches. You will get better.

Nothing beats doing it.
Lycanthrope is offline  
Old September 11, 2005, 02:53 AM   #12
DB Cooper
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2005
Posts: 1
Lots of interesting stuff here. Shooting while moving is actually not that hard and doesn't require any super special techniques. It's all about keeping the front sight on the target and trigger control. Which also means practice, practice, practice. You should be practicing from a VERY close distance and moving away from the target at varying angles. This is much more realistic. I can't think of a scenario in which you would be advancing and firing from 25 yards in self defense. Advancing drills would be 5 or 10 yards max. You can also dry fire practice these all day long. Just watch what the front sight is doing when you "fire", that's were the bullets go.

Moving while shooting is a good thing if you're not behind solid cover(you want to be the hardest thing to hit), and the BG is not moving. Trying to hit a moving target while your moving is one the hardest shots there are. Best to pause and shoot, but only if the BG is moving also and you have enough distance.
DB Cooper is offline  
Old September 11, 2005, 10:40 AM   #13
X-RAY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2005
Posts: 188
How bout a varient of the original question??
At the local indoor range, we would hang a BG target attached only at the top and would have someone reel it in while trying to make as many 'HITS' as possible. If you hang it a little off center, It'll swing left to right (or right to left) as it approaches you. Sort of simulates some one zig zagging towards you.
__________________
RIDE HARD...SHOOT STRAIGHT...AND TELL THE TRUTH
X-RAY is offline  
Old September 11, 2005, 02:35 PM   #14
STLRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
Get into the "Groucho" position, walk heel to toe and practice, practice, practice. It takes allot of practice to turn your upper torso into a stable firing platform.
__________________
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
STLRN is offline  
Old September 11, 2005, 05:28 PM   #15
Blackwater OPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,153
Train yourself to line up your sights and fire when both feet are on the ground, I.E. when the foot you are moving forward hits the ground. If you are running you will also want to time your breathing so that you are not breathing(at a cyclic pause) when your foot hit the ground. Also try to maintain a shooting posture/stance while moving.
Blackwater OPS is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 06:54 AM   #16
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
I agree with the practice, practice, practice approach...of course

But I would start by simply learning to fire accurately from non-standard positions.

So many people can only deliver accurate fire from one specific stance that movement makes accuracy all but impossible.

The real world is neither as flat nor as consistent as the square range

Using cover well will often require you to contort a bit as well

JC...using a laser sight will have one benefit....it will show you how much you are bobbing and weaving. You can use it to refine your technique without shooting. Until your mechanics are sound it will not magically allow you to hit your target.
OBIWAN is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 01:55 PM   #17
PressCheck
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2000
Location: PRK
Posts: 112
Quote:
Get into the "Groucho" position, walk heel to toe and practice, practice, practice. It takes allot of practice to turn your upper torso into a stable firing platform.
I totally agree.
PressCheck is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 02:37 PM   #18
Ingram
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2005
Posts: 121
If you want to get better at practical shooting on the move at other moving humans. Try out Airsoft. It has probably made me a 5x better shooter on the move then I was when I started.
Ingram is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 03:49 PM   #19
Win62a
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 62
footwork and movement

Forget the commando stuff and move with your strongside foot always leading. Big step, little step. This way you don't get tangled up with your own feet as you back away from the threat.

Tim
Win62a is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 04:09 PM   #20
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,197
if you're going to practice this drill, do it on a torso-sized target, forget the 3 inch bullseyes or whatever. your goal is to be able to put rounds into center mass while advancing towards it, away from it, or parallel to it.

your body does need to be able to fluidly move while shooting, because you might not be able to watch where you are stepping. having the knees slightly bent in a semi-crouch assists with this. as does leaning forward with your upper body, to help reduce muzzle flip.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 04:42 PM   #21
STLRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
Win62A, "Crabbing" is one of the techniques taught to shoot while moving at an oblique to the target, but you still have to use the approach that your torso is a turret and you legs acts as shock absorbers Erik states.

I may be pillared for this but I agree with the use of air soft, since most people cannot get simmunitions. But lacking that you still can practice on a square with your service weapon if you have some creativity and someone to assist

You are not shooting at the assistant either, what we do on the square range if we are doing live fire is we have a shooter and an AI move through an array of targets, the Marine under instruction is not allowed to flag any of the targets and when the AI calls a target the shooter has to ID the target and shoot while still moving at what ever angle he happens to be to the target.
__________________
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
STLRN is offline  
Old September 12, 2005, 05:04 PM   #22
sendec
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2005
Posts: 517
It isnt shooting while moving that's hard, its hitting while moving that's tuff, and I dont see the attraction.

Decide what is most important, moving or shooting, and then do it, then the other.
sendec is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 10:51 PM   #23
Night Watch
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: June 30, 2005
Posts: 369
Here! This is a big favor, my friend: I’m a longtime reader of Combat Handguns magazine. What follows is, more or less, quoted from M.S.A. Colson’s article, ‘Training The Gunfighter’ published (as memory serves me) 3 or 4 years ago in Combat Handguns Magazine.

I liked this article so much that I made notes on the material and kept them for future reference. I want to be careful not to imply credit to myself for what follows. These are my words from my notes; but, the source material is ALL from M.S.A. Colson’s original article. This is, about, the best information I’ve ever read on the subject of firing while moving. Maybe it will help clear up some of the confusion:

Quote:
If you’re not behind cover during a gunfight you’ll probably need to be moving toward it - shooting as you go.

Start to learn shooting-while-moving by placing a target directly in front of you about forty feet away. Draw an imaginary line between you and the target. Keep your feet on the imaginary line as you move forward. Placing them one in front of the other, in heel-to-toe fashion, while moving forward.

Bend deep at the knees because you need to use your knees as motive, ‘shock absorbers’. Tuck your elbows into your body, and exaggerate the bend in the elbows (More like Weaver than an Isosceles) in order to bring the pistol a bit closer to your face than usual. If possible, watch the front sight even more carefully than you normally would.

Start practicing by dry firing until you observe your sights staying well within the center of the target as you move forward. You will notice a slight up and own motion of the sights as you move. This is normal. Control it by keeping a deep bend in your knees. If the sights wobble too much from side-to-side, remember to be careful and place your feet, exactly, one in front of the other.

Make sure that your weight remains, forward, toward the muzzle in order to manage recoil. During live fire training, you should be able to place all your hits within an 8-inch circle. Fifty percent of them should be inside 6-inches.

After you’re comfortable with shooting while moving forward, change the angle of approach so that the imaginary line goes from you to an area of cover on your left or right front. As you move toward cover you will be forced to engage targets on either side. Right-handers, in particular, will discover shooting to the left is much easier than shooting to the right. (And visa versa for left-handers.)
NOTE: M.S.A. Colson was described as a special operations veteran with some 17 years of military experience. He is reported to have extensive training in CQB techniques.

That’s it! Like I said: I’ve never read or seen anything better on the subject. Hope this helps!
__________________
'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!'

Last edited by Night Watch; September 23, 2005 at 11:38 PM.
Night Watch is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 01:56 AM   #24
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,452
"...good techniques to practice accurately firing a pistol while moving..." Why you'd be moving is beyond me, but keep your eye on the target. Exclusively. As daft as it sounds, if you have any kind of eye/hand coordination, you'll hit the target. No factory DA triggers though.
However, if you're thinking HD, you'll also be charged with assault and/or manslaughter. If you're claiming self-defence, advancing is not an option. The threat is gone.
"...Combat Handguns magazine..." Forget what you read in any of the gun rags.
T. O'Heir is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13819 seconds with 9 queries