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Old May 16, 2000, 04:38 PM   #1
Erik
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Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
I received a generation 1 parka and generation 2 trousers last week from http://www.qm-supply.com/. The service was great and the pricing is the best I've seen on the net. If you decide to try the place out, ask for Derrick and tell him Erik recommended him.

It appears to be as promised: Of quality construction and durable.

I haven't given the set any real work out yet, but I couldn't resist trying "the shower test." I stayed dry. That's what counts, right? (I'd have to jump in a river to get that wet in Colorado.)
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Old May 16, 2000, 06:25 PM   #2
Jeff White
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Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
Erik,
Don't fall for any of the old wives tales about not washing the ECWCS. You have to wash it and treat it to keep the water repellency. 3M makes a commercial treatment.

You will have to keep the hood of your 1st generation parka up in the rain. If you don't moisture will wick down the liner and you'll still get wet. This is one of the problems that was fixed on the 2d generation design. moisture also wicks up the liner from the bottom.

For prolonged exposure to soaking wet conditions you will probably get wet in your ECWCS. The Army has went back to issuing rainsuits for those conditions.

All in all, it's great equipment, but it's not the end all in stay dry technology. Basically, keep it clean and treated with a water repellent and you'll like it. Hope these tips help you get the most out of your ECWCS.

Jeff
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Old May 16, 2000, 07:31 PM   #3
Erik
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Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
Jeff-
Excellent info!

Erik
(the other Erik here)

Deja vu! I couldn't resist.

Thanks Jeff!
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Old May 17, 2000, 08:18 AM   #4
jthuang
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Join Date: January 21, 2000
Posts: 823
Agree, I have ordered from QM Supply before (mostly for pre-ban M16 magazines) and everything was delivered quickly and at a decent price.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Old May 17, 2000, 01:33 PM   #5
STLRN
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Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
Jeff White is correct
Have you solved your BCS problem?

Here some other info that has made it way around the military

Extracted from the Infantry Letters in the May-June 94 edition of Infantry Magazine.

PROTECTING SOLDIERS IN COLD-WET CONDITIONS

LTC Jack H. Cage, in his article “Light Infantry in Cold-Wet Conditions” (INFANTRY, November 1993, page 11-12), raises serious concerns about the performance of the extended cold weather clothing system (ECWCS) parka in wet weather. He and his soldiers went to the field believing their Gore-Tex parkas would provide protection. Instead, they encountered the unusually severe weather and the Garment failed to keep them dry.
Essentially, LTC Cage was right in trying to find out why this happened and how light infantry or dismounted infantry soldiers could be protected in cold and wet weather.
Since my company, W.L. Gore & Associates. INC., manufactured the fabric used in all the parkas worn during this exercise. I was concerned with determining what has caused this situation. After reading LTC Cage’s detailed description of what happened and the reports of the personnel form the Army’s Natick Research, Development and Engineering Center who investigated the situation, I believe the following observations are relevant:
Natick’s positions that the ECWCS is designed for use only in “cold” conditions is debatable; it certainly doesn’t reflect the original intent of the program under which the requirement documents of both the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps mandated that the ECWCS be functional in the temperature range of 40 to -25 degree Fahrenheit and that the shell garment (the parka and the trousers) be constructed of water resistant (Army) or waterproof (Marines) and moisture vapor permeable. The reason for this is that the primary function for the parka and trousers is to provide a windproof barrier and keep the clothing worn under them dry. As LTC Cage and his soldiers can testify, he weather can become dangerously cold at 40 degrees.
While I may disagree with Natick personnel concerning the intent of ECWCS design, they are accurate in saying that the current parka design will not provide waterproof protection. But this doesn’t mean waterproof garments cannot be constructed using Gore-Tex fabric. The material itself is absolutely waterproof and has been used successfully in both commercial and military wet-weather garments in some of the world’s worst climates. If this is the case, then why didn’t these garments provide the protection that soldiers expected?
First the ECWCS parka was designed more than ten years ago and used than state of the art features to make it as waterproof as possible. Unfortunately, at that time, we didn’t realize the importance of sealing all the seams in a garment. Therefore, the seams attaching the zippers in front and under the arms are not sealed and allow water to enter through the stitch holes to cause significant problems, we learned over time that they do contribute to leakage in a garment.
During the past decade, we also learned to appreciate the effects of wicking on garment designs. This term is used to describe the tendency of a material to transfer moisture from one location to another. In the case of the ECWCS parka, the lining material wick moisture from any point that gets wet to area that are well removed from that point. This means moisture on the hood lining wicks down the back of the garment, unless the hood is raised as soon as it begins to rain. Water entering the stitch hole along the zippers can migrate to areas around the chest and back; and if the soldier is not wearing waterproof trousers, the trouser material becomes saturated and where the trousers contact the lower liner of the parka, it will wick moisture up into the body of the garment. In this situation, the solider can become soaked even if the garment doesn’t “leak.”
The statement that “the PFTE suit’s water resistant capability might be degraded after repeated wear and laundering” should not come as a surprise. Natick personnel who investigated this situation determined that about half of the garment worn by LTC Cage’s soldiers had been manufactured in 1985 and under average wear conditions, should have reached the end of their service life in 1989. We recommend that the command have the soldiers inspect the garments periodically for excessive wear, paying particular attention to garments with a contract date more than four years old. But even if LTC Cage had done this, half of the unit would still have garments well with their service life.
Can soldiers do anything to improve the performance of the material in these parkas? The answer is an unqualified yes.
First, many soldiers think that the Gore-Tex fabric is fragile and don’t wash the garment until absolutely necessary. The truth is that this material is very tough, and the water repellant finish performs better when clean. The material is actually constructed of two fabrics laminated to a film. When the laminate is manufactured, a water-repellent finish is applied to the external fabric, but this finish doesn’t make the laminate waterproof. The film provides this quality while the finish causes water to bead in the surface of the exterior fabric, reducing the tendency to wick water toward unsealed areas. By getting water to run off the surface, we keep the material from feeling cold and clammy.
Another benefit of the water-repellent finish that it allows passage of vapor more readily from inside the parka. Without this finished on the fabric, water can soak in and cool the surface in and cools the surface as it evaporates. Moisture generates by a soldier’s body in the form of vapor can pass easily thorough the laminate unless the vapor contacts a cool surface; then it condenses into liquid (just as warm breath condenses into a liquid when it contacts a cool piece of glass). Once this occurs, the water must be re-vaporized before it can pass through the laminate. It is readily apparent, then, that the water-repellant finish should be kept in good shape. Fortunately, this is not difficult.
When water no longer beads in the surface, the garment should be washed and then dried in a standard home dryer in the permanent press or sturdy cotton setting. This is important because the heat in the dryer helps prolong the life of the finish. Simply washing and drying the garment may restore its ability to make bead on the surface. If water doesn’t bead on the surface, ironing the parka, using a warm steam setting (for synthetics or nylon), may temporarily restore the fabric’s water repellency. After the garment has had extended wear, however, a soldier many have to maintain surface beading by applying a commercially available non-silicon water repellant (such as Scothguard, Ultrthon, or Prevail brands) to the outer fabric. These steps may be repeated as necessary.
Unfortunately, given the current situation relative to ECWCS parka design, I have to agree with LTC Cage’s position that soldiers in light infantry units and dismounted soldiers in mechanized units need the standard army wet-weather parka and trousers (WWPT) in addition to the ECWCS to protect themselves during severe wet conditions. This is certainly not an acceptable answer, however, if soldier’s load is considered, and the Army and the Marine Corps are working aggressively toward a solution. They have launched an 18 month program with Natick to redesign the ECWCS parka and trousers to eliminate the problem described. If the program is successful, soldiers should not have to carry both the WWPT and the ECWCS parka and trousers. Until that time, I think the recommendations are in order
 Take the WWPT to the field to augment the ECWCS parka and trouser if sever weather is expected.
 When using the ECWCS parka in wet weather, also wear the ECWCS trouser to prevent wicking from the BDU trousers onto parka’s lining.
 Follow the cleaning instruction described in here, and as the garment ages, restore the water-repellent finish as described.
 Inspect the garments periodically and turn in worn-out items

S. Nicholas Allen
W.L. Gore & Associates
Albuquerque, New Mexico.


Hope this helps

Ron

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Old May 18, 2000, 11:24 AM   #6
Erik
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Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
Thanks for the information! I will be using the gear primarily for hunting in the Colorado Rockies in October and Novermber, so all should be well. (We don't really get much extremely wet weather, regardless of the time of year.)

Has anyone ever cut out the wicking liner? Does this help? Or does it just cause more headaches?
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