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Old July 19, 2005, 10:04 PM   #26
Dog Confetti
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This is why I only fire on the ranges that I run and teach to standard, or when I can find a private "range"...I refuse to go to a range where I can't train.
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Old July 20, 2005, 08:05 AM   #27
Apple a Day
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Cuss!

Everyone has forgotten the most important and most universal procedure when there's a mechanical failure...
CUSS!
First I cuss the cartridge.
Then I wait a good ten to twenty seconds. I pass the time by cussing softly.
About that point I've decided it might be the firing pin so I cuss it.
Then I rotate the semi-auto's ejection port away from my face-just in case- pop out the mag. and eject the round, cuss the gun just to make sure it knows I'm unhappy and it had better be on its best behavior.
I go back to cussing the cartridge.
I check the primer. If there's a dimple then it isn't the firing pin so I cuss the primer (the most polite word I use for it is 'hard' and the language goes south from there) and the hammer spring.
If it's a revolver I just keep shooting and cuss semi-autos for being so [cuss] complicated.
Okay, cussing probably doesn't help but it makes me feel better. Just thought I'd lighten the mood of the thread
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Old July 21, 2005, 05:24 PM   #28
Rob Pincus
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While cursing is incredibly important during any critical incident, it shouldn't be part of civilized training discussion.

As noted above, this is a strategy and tactics forum. Range Safety is always important, though. Can anyone cite a real FIRST HAND incident of a properly executed immediate action drill resulting in an injury because of a true delayed detonation of commercially manufactured ammo?

fal, Thanks for your candid story.. but that has nothing to do with immediate action drills, it had to do with poor weapons handling and not keeping the weapon pointed in a safe direction (ie- not at your own body parts).

I would never allow a "tactical," "Concealed Carry" or similar student to wait more than about long enough to utter a quick curse word before they started their immediate action drill without verbal motivation. The idea that you wait to see what happens while you are trying to move offline from an attack, use cover properly, etc, "at speed" is so counter to any effective training model as to be offensive.

Target Shooters would be another story, but that is outside the realm of the S&T forum....

Recreational shooters (also outside of S&T) on my ranges are in a completely different category, as the instructor normally clears their malfunctions so that they can get back to playing movie special agent at our luxurious (not exotic) training area.

If you are training for self-defense or defense of others, Train Realistically...

Rob Pincus
Director of Operations, Valhalla Training Center
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Old July 21, 2005, 07:22 PM   #29
JohnKSa
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Quote:
a real FIRST HAND incident of a properly executed immediate action drill resulting in an injury because of a true delayed detonation of commercially manufactured ammo
[sarcasm]You're right--we should wait until we can document an injury (preferably a serious one) before recommending that people follow generally accepted safety procedures.[/sarcasm]

Ok, once more I want to make it clear that if the users of the range have agreed to follow a different set of safety rules, then it's a totally different story. But if you're "training" at a public range with other shooters nearby, it's your responsibility to see that you don't take actions that endanger them. When dealing with firearms that means that you follow ALL the established firearm safety rules. That includes keeping the muzzle pointed downrange after a misfire long enough to be reasonably certain that it's not a hangfire.

I don't see that this is a difficult distinction (public range, standard rules vs private or controlled range, special rules), nor do I see why this distinction should cause anyone any problems.
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Last edited by JohnKSa; July 21, 2005 at 11:34 PM.
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Old July 22, 2005, 12:34 AM   #30
Rob Pincus
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John,

Your assertion that the distinction needs clarification may be correct... shooting at a public range is usually not training.

"The athletic ability to draw fast and shoot straight...blah,blah,etc,etc...."

The reason it causes a problem is because consistency is one of the most incredibly important parts of tactical preparation. It is what makes cognitive reaction quicker and therefore it makes us more efficient.. having more than one way to respond to the same thing causes a decision making process in the brain that MUST slow us down, regardless of which decision we make.
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Old July 22, 2005, 07:18 PM   #31
JohnKSa
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Rob,

Guys like you, and the ranges that people like you run aren't the problem. The problem is newbies reading these posts and walking away convinced that in order to be tactical, they have to do an immediate clearance drill anytime they hear a click. They're not headed to train at Valhalla or Gunsite, they're headed to "train" at the public range while standing next to an unsuspecting shooter.

Sometimes the people involved in these forum discussions lose track of the fact that the majority of readers aren't instructors, range owners, or Special Forces members.
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Old July 24, 2005, 07:36 PM   #32
k9lwt
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Keeping the weapon pointed downrange at the targed, Tap, Rack, Bang, Assess.
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