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Old June 23, 2005, 08:26 AM   #1
Buzzkill
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best money no object HD Gun

I was just wondering {no need for a HD gun where i live }

Was the best money no object HD Shotgun .

If it was me Id get a Benilli super 90 m1

OK i know alot of you are going to say remington 870,s but how good are they . or did you just buy it cause you were on a budget . how well would a 870 stack up against something like a beneili which would be twice the price of an 870 .

Thanks
Bob
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Old June 23, 2005, 08:32 AM   #2
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it's apples to oranges. if you're confident in semi-auto shotguns - which i am, but just have no money for at the moment (hehe, just what you said) - i'd say the benelli's it. the inertia system is cleaner and easier to maintain than a gas one, which is what all the other semis use i believe. i'm no expert though, as i said, i'm looking to get one in the next year, don't have one yet. right now i've got a mossberg 835, which i think stacks up to the remington 870, some people may argue. both are fantastic pumps, and you don't get them because you're on a budget, you get them because you want a reliable, solid pump shotgun that will last you forever if you take care of it. the fact that they're in the $300 range is just an added bonus. there are lower-end pumps like the mossberg 500 out there if you are on a budget, which still perform well but may not have the super-mag capability among other things. if money's no object and you trust semi-auto shotgun actions with your home defense, i'd say the benelli you mentioned or the super black eagle are good ways to go.
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Old June 23, 2005, 11:32 AM   #3
sm
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Best Money

Training.

Get a bone stock pump shotgun made by any of the big 4 , Rem, Win, Mossberg,or Ithaca. Get an experienced shooter to teach you the basic safe handling, how to pattern/ group the shotgun for loads YOUR gun likes.

Take that basic shotgun to a training class. You will learn what works, what does not, what is needed for a task and what is a waste of money.

FWIW - Good shooters are made, not born. - Misseldine

Good shooters spend more money on ammo than the price of the firearm. Most spend more money on training, lessons and range fees.

The firearm is only a tool. NO tool is ever any better than the operator of said tool. Be it a Firearm, hand held can opener, scapel, screwdriver, motor vehicle or pocket knife.

Once you have attended training, had some trigger time ( live and dry fire) - then- and only then should you consider with knowledge gained, and actually having tried as instructed - change anything for you task. Be it platform, side-saddles, mag extensions, lights or fuzzy dice.

Too many folks have for too many years been using a bone stock 870, 1300, Model 12, Ithaca 37, Model '97 Win - pump guns are NOT ammo dependent.

Gas guns have improved. The SX1 is still my favorite and most reliable, Brister thought the same. The Humback , the 1100 and SX2 are proven as well.

Tis the archer not the arrow that hits the mark. One cannot buy skill and targets.

This applies to HD, target/ clay shooting, bird hunting, or deer hunting.

Attend / take lessons and for clay games - the O/U rules. The Gas guns like 390/391 are next up.

Upland hunting - say Gentleman Quail, Two bbl shotguns ( O/U, SxS ) in 28 ga and .410 rules.

Waterfowl. The SX2 and 870s rule

Deer and Turkey - Gonna see SX2 and similar, with the pump gun as well.

There is no Holy Grail. What is a common useful tool for less than a weeks wages is the pump gun. You may be scorned for showing up with one for a Georgia Quail hunt,you may be looked down on at a Trap Shoot with a 870...fact is - it will fell them if you do your part.

Some folks do not mind taking a $1200 gun out in freezing cold and using as boat paddle to fell waterfowl, or getting dinged and scratched out Deer , turkey hunting. Who cares if a $200 870 Express gets banged, scratched, wet or muddy?

Whatcha gonna do with a shotgun? You gonna fondle and caress, leave in a safe and type feel good stuff? Or you gonna have a use and try to be the best you can for that purpose?

My shotguns have character. Got one with over 200k rds thru it. Some might call them dings, scratches, worn bluing. Nope - them are characters and memories.
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Old June 23, 2005, 01:03 PM   #4
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You dont buy an hd shotgun on a budget you buy what works you should have no problems with an 870, or any other pump for that matter they are reliable and you trust your life and your families lives on one they are just that good. Plus they make a sound that I would not want to be on the recieving end of.
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Old June 23, 2005, 01:42 PM   #5
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benelli 1014 If it's good enough for the Marines, then it's good enough for me.
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Old June 23, 2005, 01:49 PM   #6
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I gotta make a comment on " racking a shotgun".

Yes that is a distinct sound.

I do not want to make any noise if I am about to use a shotgun, any firearm for that matter.

I don't want the BGs to know my location, I don't want to flare ducks, spook a deer, or turkey.

Shotguns are loaded with one in the chamber, as are 1911s, BHPs - any and everthing I use. I "snick" off the safety and shoot. Revolvers , I just pull the trigger.

Why would I want to give myself away, or advantage by racking a slide on a shotgun, bolt on a semi like a 1100, 1911, BHP...??

FWIW I on purpose removed the safeties on many skeet guns. It was allowed and all we did was inform range, RO, SO as did the folks with release triggers. I have used these same guns as HD guns and for hunting. I didn't rack the slide , I used the 4 Rules of safety and just shot the durn things with NEVER an accident.

Heck I don;t depend on safeties, 4 Rules again. On the newest 870 it had than J hook safety - I took it out and and used for HD and whatever without one until I put the old style in it. JUst had to wait to find one.

I have seen my elephants and mine were real enough to me. Never played a video game ( except when I did volunteer work in a Children's Hosptial) and that kid wanted to play race car something or another. Beat me like a drum. I got my revenge with a real Pinball machine.

Nice to be a Reprobate, a relic or whatever I am and not be into whatever one is supposed to be into I guess.
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Old June 23, 2005, 05:38 PM   #7
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best using what criteria?

and sm, I could not agree more with ya.
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Old June 23, 2005, 06:56 PM   #8
Dave McC
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I use 870s for everything. If I won a lottery a couple times and could buy ANYTHING, I'd get more 870s....

In trained hands,no better CQB weapon. Buy an 870, a small truckload of ammo, and hie thyself to the best intructor one can afford. A few K rounds later, you're deadly.....
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Old June 23, 2005, 09:13 PM   #9
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I'm pretty happy with what I have.

But if someone were to give me a Benelli M4 Super 90 with night sights, the +2 mag extension, and the collapsible butt stock, I wouldn't re-gift it.
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:00 PM   #10
Lee Lapin
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It's always fun to play what if. Especially the budget-don't-matter kind. You can have stuff gold plated and ivory stocked and engraved and spend a ton of money on it, and some folks think that's the ultimate. Or you can have some mucho famoso 'smith or company stamp/engrave/etch their name on the side of your gun and charge you $1500 or $2000 for $300 worth of work plus their name, AND make you wait 6 months to get it. You can do all that and more if you want. It might impress some people, heck it might impress a LOT of people. If it makes you happy fine, if it gives you greater confidence in the gun fine. Do it.

I'm happy with a solid design that has several million examples in service and over 50 years of reliable history in LE, military and civilian usage. You don't wanna hear about 870s, fine. No problem, the world is your oyster and you can buy anything you want. I too can buy anythig i want, save for the million dollar gold plated ivory stocked middle eastern potentate stuff. Even if I COULD buy something like that I wouldn't, it's better suited to the proprietess of a bordello IMHO.

Given time to tweak it a bit to suit me and to shoot it enough to demonstrate its reliability I would and do settle for a run of the mill 870. I have a nice M1S90 in the safe that I bought NIB just before the late lamented ban came along, and I sold an older one to buy it. There's a Remington Model 11 in there too, and an 11-48, and a Belgian Browning Auto 5 to cover the recoil operated stuff. There's a couple of Winchester 1200/1300s, some Mossberg 500s, one lone Ithaca 37, a Remington 1100 and an 11-87 for gas guns. There are a couple of SXSs and one O/U to keep the Brittany happy.

What's propped nearby close at hand, loaded with low recoil 00 is an older model 870 Express gun I bought used for less than $175. The forcing cone has been extended in the factory ImpCyl 20" RS barrel, its stock has been trimmed down to 12 1/2" and the recoil pad swapped out for a KickEez. That's it. That's all. No bells, no whistles, no fuzzy dice on the rearview mirror or curb feelers on the fenders. Not necessary, and not there.

There's Wingmasters dating back to the early '70s here, and a nice 1989 870P in blue and walnut. There are a few more Express guns around too, including two in 20 ga. youth configuration. All of them are completely servicable, dependable, reliable, durable. All the guns here are shooters, we are not collectors. Some are more tricked out than others, some have ghost rings and/or tritium, have been parkerized, have had lots of barrel work done, high dollar choke tubes installed, all in the process of experimenting to see what works how, what's good and what's hype.

You know what? It's a shotgun. It will always be a shotgun no matter what you do to it. It's only gonna get so good. Then it is all up to the shooter. That's the bottom line. If it runs, and runs reliably with the ammo at hand, that's is all the gun itself can do. The rest is the shooter.

It matters far more how good the shooter is, than how tricked-out/bad/kewl/expensive/whatever the gun is.

IMO the best money-no-object shotgun is a good 870. It doesn't NEED to be better than that, and quite frankly little if anything available out there is actually better no matter what the price tag.

lpl/nc
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:04 PM   #11
ethernectar
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Benelli M2 with an extension tube. Nothing like 7 00-buck rounds on-target in about 3 seconds.
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:53 PM   #12
sm
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Well as ususal Dave, Lee, myself and some others are on a different page.

Let us go a different direction in light of recent Supreme Court decisions if I may.

I am of the "old school" one should have 4 of the same defense guns. One hidden off site somewhere, one as a backup to the primary use, one in the event one is taken by LEO, or Gov't Meddlin' , and one in the event the primary needs repair from use, abuse or whatever...Murphy's Law if you will.

A NIB Express sells for ~ $200 around here. $800 for 4 shotguns as is.
Police trade ins are what, lets say $250, that is $1k.
I and others have bought used , no paperdrill pump shotguns for $135 to $150. So we have $440- $600.

Same applies to used Police trade in Model 10's
Lever Action 30-30 like Model 94's.
Some kind of .22 rifle, Marlin 60, CZ or whatever.

I never got into metallic reloading, I had as many as 10/11 shotshell reloaders, I ran in 12 ga alone 25K rds a year thru a shotgun. I did the shotshell reloading and trusted folks did the metallic - we traded, did for each other. So add a Mec Reloader for $100 and say $200 for components to reload a shotgun.

My point is, some of us understand the statement : There is more to Responsible Firearm Ownership - than firearms in a whole different light than many.


For those that have not read the following - I highly suggest you do in light of recent rulings:

"Metal and Wood"
by Dennis Bateman
http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/li..._and_Wood.html

Have you spent monies to preserve freedoms? Have you spent monies to train? Have you spent monies to teach and pass forward to another?

Dave, Lee, kudu, myself and others have and continue to. My guns are not fancy or high dollar. I "invest " in other worthwhile responsibilities.

Steve
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Old June 24, 2005, 10:35 AM   #13
Buzzkill
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Lee

I didn,t mean i didn,t want to hear about 870,s

I first just thought they were a good solid gun . I never knew they are one of the best .

I only said that i didn,t want to hear about 870,s is the majority of HD shotguns most people own are 870s and I just wanted to know if you could would you change it for something like a benili .

also, it would be better to have an 870 or or maybe a Winchester 1300 , so you could use them and shoot them and not be afraid to put a scratch on the stock .


Sorry if this seems like a stupid post .

Thanks
Bob
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Old June 24, 2005, 11:31 AM   #14
sm
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Buzzkill,

Not a stupid post.

Recall the only dumb question is the one not asked.

I , along with Dave, Lee, and others- DO take this Responsible Firearms Ownership quite serious.

Do a search for Awerbuck, and those that have taken his shotgun courses. The 870 is very popular, and one can see Mr. Awerbucks take, pro and con of various platforms, and how they are set up.

Do a search of folks whom have taken various shotgunning trainings. There is a reason the 870 is THE shotgun for LEO agencies. NOT based on price, not because of special mfg, incentives and such. Proven.

Now there are other shotguns besides the 870, very good shotguns. We don't deny that. Just not many folks want to use a Model 12 or Win 1897 , because of the price, senitment or whatnot.

I have alway shared one of the best kept secrets is a 1100 in 20 ga. I know too many folks using one for everything- including HD. Many of these are fixed choked barrels of Skeet or IC.

In teaching folks here is a great example and something to think about.

A bigger person can shoot a smaller gun - a smaller person may not be able to use a bigger gun.

I had a Family with a Petite wife and petitie daughter. The hubby is BIG. He had a real nice 12 ga with side saddle, mag extension and light.

In one lesson I had him "hold" that shotgun with one hand and dial a phone with the other and pretend he was keeping a BG at bay while waiting for the LEO.

His wife and daughter could not use that Shotgun of his.

I then allowed the wife and daughter to shoot a fixed skeet choked bbl 1100 in 20 ga - it fit them. They could also hold the BG at bay and call the Police.

They could also do this with a youth 870 and 1300. They liked, especially the daughter the 1100 better for felt recoil.

Hubby sold his really nice 12 ga. He scoured , found first found one - then two 1100s in 20 ga, his wife and daughter started shooting skeet and such and enjoying shotgunning with a ladies league.

He borrowed a shotgun from his dad to shoot skeet and hunt with. Priorites were the gals being able to defend when he was out town, having fun ,learning to shoot and shoot better, they even got into bird hunting as a family.

Monies also went for lessons and CCW for he and the wife, the daughter was not yet 21, she too will when of age. Again - he went for what worked for the money and bought used revolvers for he and the wife.

Finally with the priorites and all taken care of - sving some money- family chipped in and got him a 870 Express of his own for waterfowl and turkey. His dad...guess he was so happy to get his guns back...bought son ( hubby) a used 1100 in 12 ga. He ran into a deal from a co- worker.

For a awhile the family do all gun was a 1100 in 20 ga. Upon finding a deal on a used MEC reloader - the family reloaded together.

He does not miss NOT having the fancy expensive shotgun. Priorities of what works for the money, and his wife and daughter. Not to mention he found out holding a BG at Bay and "talking to LEO" in a training lesson a whole bunch easier with a 1100 in 20 ga

I just think outside the box a lot is all...
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Old June 24, 2005, 01:42 PM   #15
Buzzkill
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Thanks for the post sm

That is a really good thing for me to think about

Thanks

Bob
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Old June 26, 2005, 07:41 PM   #16
Lee Lapin
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I didn,t mean i didn,t want to hear about 870,s


Bob,

Didn't mean that is a personal, specific-to Bob 'you'- just a generic you, the you that is everyone other than me.

There are some people out there who are opinionated, sure. Not a problem with that, I too am opinionated re. some stuff. But there are others who are not just opinionated but prejudiced, closed-minded, etc. That was who I had in mind with the remarks I made. Over the years I have gotten sorta tired of that attitude, and sometimes it gets the best of me.

I've been running 870s most of my life, and have also had the option/opportunity to run lots of other stuff. Interestingly enough, the only times I officially went into harm's way, I was carrying a S&W revolver and a Winchester Model 12 riot gun. The local PD i ran reserve with had only Model 12s in the locker and that was it, so I carried one (and loved it) on patrol with my partner. But when given my druthers for a serious shotgun i will take an 870 every time.

I don't mind it when people say something like '870s are good but a Mossberg feels better to me/fits me better/has a control layout I like better.' I tend to dismiss out of hand statements by people who say 'this or that or the other is useless' when such a statement is contradictory to my own and others' experience, and does not reflect ample/any experience on the part of the person making the statement.

Nothing personal intended...

hth,

lp/nc
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Old June 26, 2005, 07:44 PM   #17
mpi
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look on local lake bottoms, thats where i got my m1super90 and a krieghoff k-80.
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