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View Poll Results: Pump or Autoloader?
Pump 60 68.18%
Autoloader 28 31.82%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 15, 2005, 02:20 PM   #26
jvlip3
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About the SPAS-12, I handled one at a tactical course and aside from it's weight in pump mode it was chore to use. Looks great in the Terminator movies though. Between the two auto types I would prefer the recoil operated to the gas system.
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Old June 15, 2005, 03:11 PM   #27
Guy B. Meredith
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I don't trust auto loaders when the chips are down. I've had too many stovepipes on my pistol (dab of Lubriplate cures it, but can't do that at a critical moment) and seen way more autos jamming than revolvers (maybe because there are more?). Traded in my pistol for the Mossberg pump.

Probably the only semi auto I will ever bother with is the M1 Garand. Not for defense, though.
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Old June 15, 2005, 07:55 PM   #28
Death from Afar
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YEARS ago, I was playing with a SPAS 12 and could never get the knack of all the levers and buttons. A lot of fun to shoot, buy WAY to heavy for anything. This was when the first Terminator movie came out, and we thought the SPAS was WAY COOl as teenagers! I actually blasted a few possums with it, it was a heck of a lot of fun.

Having siad that, fun is not much use when the chips are down. I'll stick to a pump thanks.
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Old June 16, 2005, 01:01 PM   #29
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Guy B. Merideth,

Not to be a smart a$$ but... I'm not sure what brands of guns you are carrying, but if you are constantly having jams, you need to buy a better gun. If the jams are caused by the way you are shooting it or holding it, learn the proper way. I don't recall any jams with any of my combat guns and the only failure to fire was a single dud bullet in the thousands of rounds that I have fired. My rimfire is a little more finicky but that is mostly an ammo issue. Most modern auto loaders are very reliable!

As for a pump being more reliable than an auto loader shotgun, this is probably true due to the greater complexity of the auto loader, especially its gas operated system. If you keep your guns cleaned and lubed, it shouldn't make much of a difference.
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Old June 16, 2005, 03:04 PM   #30
mathman
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Not all autos recoil less than a pump...for example, the benelli kicks as hard or harder than a pump since it is inertia operated and is lighter than most pumps. My 870 kicks less than my benelli.
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Old June 16, 2005, 04:30 PM   #31
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I have to admit the two auto's I have owned never jammed. I could also empty the Super 90 so fast it was like a machinegun. I sold it because it was poor with slugs beyond 25 yards. The 500 with it's barrel selection was just more useful. The main thing is get what works for you. If you want recoil try a Browning A-5.
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Old June 16, 2005, 08:33 PM   #32
Nnobby45
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Quote:
If you want a pump try a winchester 1897. They have no disconnector, and can therefor be fired really fast without much practice.
Careful JohnBrowing, the M97 fires when you pump the action with finger on the trigger--even if you don't mean for it to.
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Old June 16, 2005, 09:05 PM   #33
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There were lots of informative posts so far, so I will give you my opinion too.
I own Rem 870's pumps, Ithaca pumps, a Rem 1100, Beretta 390, and a couple of O/U's, along with several pistols and rifles.
I, personally NEVER had an auto fail to fire with the least amount of cleaning and care. Sure, any gun can misfire, misfeed and a bunch of things go wrong. But the bottom line is, autos (most) have been around for a while and the companies have worked out any bugs they may have, they wouldn't sell many autos if they didn't. For strictly HD I would still prefer an auto. I don't want to have to do anything except pull a trigger to get a second shot off if needed. Lets take the situation where you were just shot in your "pump arm"... how are you going to pump the next shell in. At least with an auto, you just pull the trigger.
No disrespect to those who LOVE pump guns, as I am one of them, I just prefer to be able to shoot again if I had too.
As far as racking a round in the chamber and the bad guy being scared off.... I would much prefer to have the drop on him instead of warning him I am coming after him.. "here I come, just thought I would warn you first" Come on. does anyone think for one moment a bad guy isn't waiting to hear you make a noise,, hell, he is hoping you will let him know where you are if he is armed. He would rather kill you than take a chance on HIS life. Too many people really think life is like the movies,, it ain't. We all like to think we are Rambo's, but it takes a certain amount of commitment to actually kill another human being plus you will have to live with it and also face a charge of manslaughter, no matter how right you are or how justified.
I truly beleive in proctecting my family and home, and I am prepared to do so, but, I will call 911 first. I no longer have any kids at home, so in my case I would prefer to let the police handle it, unless of course the bad guy tries to break down a door. In that case, the police WILL be too late. So unless your family or wife is in real danger of being hurt I would hope not to have to take another's life. Besides, that is why I have homeowners insurance.
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Old June 16, 2005, 10:58 PM   #34
Guy B. Meredith
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My pistol was a Ruger MK512 rimfire. It just needed lube to eliminate stovepipes.

I purchased the Ruger based on the idea that it is great for marksmanship then discovered that I just don't find semi autos interesting. Might just be part of my knee-jerk tendency to lose interest in anything that is an 'in' or 'cool' item.
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Old June 16, 2005, 11:35 PM   #35
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Guy,

.22 LR semiautos tend to have quite a few misfires. That is why I mentioned centerfire pistols when I made my reliability claim. There isn't that much powder in the .22 and they are so cheap, I'm sure they can't afford to quality control each one. If you have a heavy return spring, I can see you getting jams.

There are a lot of great semi auto pistols out there. Don't let your bad experience with a single gun keep you from enjoying some really great guns. Besides, if you were really that concerned about it, get a semi auto just for the range.

Here is my rationale why semi autos are superior:
1. Usually has a greater ammo capacity
2. Much faster to reload
3. Much easier to carry magazines rather than speed loaders
4. Longer barrel length for the same length gun since semi auto have no cylinders
a. Longer barrel means greater accuracy
b. Longer barrel means greater velocity
5. Revolvers are usually wider due to the cylinder thickness

I know people will argue that revolvers are simpler to opoerate but modern semi autos are very reliable. Some people say that revolvers have second strike capability (granted that you will need to cycle through the whole cylinder first). DA/SA semi autos have the same capability although the second strike occurs on the same round with the next oull of the hammer. Anyways, I just wanted to offer my $.02 worth.
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Old June 17, 2005, 12:40 AM   #36
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Should I do what the poll numbers indicate?

Should I buy a Benelli Mule that I can pullnpush 2/3s of the time and let it self-stuffnshuck 1/3 of the time? What if I pullnpush when I should have let it self-stuffnshuck? Would that be an unforgivable tactical faux pas? I could die of an embarassing case of lead poisoning. I give up. The pressure is too great. I am selling my self-stuffnshucker and only using my double-pushnplucker. That way I can shoot as fast as self-stuffnshucker (at least for the first two shots) and I can pushnpluck shells sorta like a pullnpusher. Since I only need it for my barricade, is a double-pushnplucker adequate? I would hate to have adequacy issues, it might hurt my self-esteem. Will I be tacticool? I'd like to be cool with tact. Will the self-stuffnshucker guys consider me a traitor and the pushnpuller guys think I'm a poser? Is there a double-pushnplucker tacticool support group on TFL?


"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".

Last edited by Webleywielder; June 17, 2005 at 12:43 AM. Reason: speln
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:29 AM   #37
Guy B. Meredith
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stephen426,

Autos are just, for me, terminally boring.

In terms of the auto vs pump shotgun the auto has none of the 'advantages' you outline for handguns. After watching others deal with jammed autos I don't have warm fuzzies.

Regarding handgun, I am a rank amateur with less than zero amount of the competitors' desire to beat anyone and just shoot competition for the activity but regularly come out ahead of 25% or so of auto shooters in local competition.

1. Don't need high cap, just hit what you aim at. Eight shots are enough.
2. Debatable--depends on user.
3. CCW not permitted in SF Bay area, irrelevant in HD
4. Debatable incremental advantage--no CCW in SF Bay area so no snubbies
a. Correct.
b. Correct
5. CCW not permitted in SF Bay area, irrelevent in HD.

I don't use handgun for HD as I don't want them languishing in an evidence locker. For $180 I can pick up another used Mossberg. Dunno what autos run.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:53 AM   #38
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Quote:
Should I buy a Benelli Mule that I can pullnpush 2/3s of the time and let it self-stuffnshuck 1/3 of the time? What if I pullnpush when I should have let it self-stuffnshuck? Would that be an unforgivable tactical faux pas? I could die of an embarassing case of lead poisoning. I give up. The pressure is too great. I am selling my self-stuffnshucker and only using my double-pushnplucker. That way I can shoot as fast as self-stuffnshucker (at least for the first two shots) and I can pushnpluck shells sorta like a pullnpusher. Since I only need it for my barricade, is a double-pushnplucker adequate? I would hate to have adequacy issues, it might hurt my self-esteem. Will I be tacticool? I'd like to be cool with tact. Will the self-stuffnshucker guys consider me a traitor and the pushnpuller guys think I'm a poser? Is there a double-pushnplucker tacticool support group on TFL?
Nice, witty post
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Old June 17, 2005, 12:18 PM   #39
sm
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Of the two choices in the poll - Pump gun for me.

It ain't no big deal and I ain't either

I believe in gun fit to shooter. Learning Correct Basic Fundamentals. Get to know what YOUR gun with WHAT load will do for the TASK intended. Shoot a helluva lot. Much truth in "beware the man that shoots one gun". One CANNOT buy skill and targets.

I have complete confidence in my '74 Win Super X 1 a semi auto.

You know, Brister, Misseldine and so many others said the same thing, different ways..."You get where you can paint out of the sky with a stick".

Gimme a Pump [ '97, '37, 12, 870, 1300...] Gimmee a Semi, [SX1, SX2, 303, 390/391...Gimme a O/U, SXS , even a single shot. I don't care - got my druthers...

Even the lowly single shot .410 , and I Know the in-effectiveness of the .410.

If I can see if - I can fell it I don't worry about it no more.

Yep - I tote a .410 single shot for "general purpose" lots of times.
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Old June 17, 2005, 03:42 PM   #40
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Hi Guy,

Not to be arguementative but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy B. Merideth
1. Don't need high cap, just hit what you aim at. Eight shots are enough.
2. Debatable--depends on user.
3. CCW not permitted in SF Bay area, irrelevant in HD
4. Debatable incremental advantage--no CCW in SF Bay area so no snubbies
a. Correct.
b. Correct
5. CCW not permitted in SF Bay area, irrelevent in HD.

I don't use handgun for HD as I don't want them languishing in an evidence locker. For $180 I can pick up another used Mossberg. Dunno what autos run.
1. Most revolvers are six shooters. Some are 5 shooters and some a 7 shooters. There are very few 8 shooters that I know of.
2. For the same skill level, the auto loader will ALWAYS be faster. You can keep the gun in your shoting hand and keep the same grip while the weak hand does the reloading. Fast revolver reloading requires the weak hand to push the cylinder out, press the plunger to clear the spent shells, while the gun hand grabs the speed loader.
3 - 5. Although this is irrelavent for you, it is still true for those of us who can CCW.

As for your last point, I'm not sure what the benefit of having a shotgun in an evidence locker versus a handgun. If you are just talking about price, Iguess you can say that. I own several handguns and would make sure I have something else to use in case someone else got any bright ideas and wanted to pay me an unwanted visit!
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Old June 17, 2005, 04:23 PM   #41
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Folks,

Reliability is based on a number of factors:

Design or platform is only one. I have seen single shots , O/U, SXS, Pumps, Semi's and the one the Great Pumpkin uses - fail.

Most folks overclean the stuff on any firearm that don't really need cleaning - and neglect to inspect and maintain the areas that are CRITICAL.

--Chambers and Extraction - These are THE two areas that cause the most seen malfunctions. Etched in Granite I swear.

Which begs the question " Do you know how to take care of chambers and extraction? Do you know how to inspect and maintain YOUR gun?

--Ammo, Ammo must be reliable in YOUR GUN. Not what the fellow shooting next to you is using, not what is on sale,not what momma, papa, brother, sister , Team Kumquat and for damn sure NOT what someone on the Internet 'says'. Does YOUR ammo Feed, Extract in YOUR Gun? Will it do so for 200 rds of testing without fail?

I have never understood why folks will spend monies on a firearm - especially a LOT of money on one - one especially to defend one's life, and put the lest inexpensive crap ammo in the gun and get all upset.

In the words spoken by Rosie Greer to Richard Pryor - whom was in the hospital suffering from burns due to freebasing - Whatcha Gonna Do?

Richard had to hit bottom, Richard had to find what worked for HIM, find it, practice it , and continue to use what FIT him.

I recently ran 500 rds of slugs thru a '74 SX1 with NO malfuntions in one day. without cleaning. Same gun I have run 2k rds in a week w/o cleaning.

I have run 3K rds of various loads - including ~ 750 rds of slugs/ buckshot thru a bone stock 870 Express.

I have run 1K rds of mixed loads of shot, buck and slugs thru 1100s in all 4 gauges. bunches of times over the years w/ no malfs, and w/o cleaning [ammo in 28 restricted to shot loads, .410 to shot and slugs of course.

I have too many times spent less than $500 for either myself / setting up a new shooter, and this included a shotgun, ammo, and lessons. A general purpose shotgun that worked -reliable, and the user had confidence in the gun and the ablity of skill do take on any and all tasks.

Truth is -

The smart person spends more money on ammo and training than the firearm itself.
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:52 PM   #42
Guy B. Meredith
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Taurus and S&W both have a swarm of 7-shot revolvers and several 8-shot. Six is old hat unless shopping Ruger. I joke that my M66 is my only honest revolver (and my favorite). My Mossberg is my only other 6-shot.
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Old June 24, 2005, 07:07 PM   #43
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Stick to shotguns guys.
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Old June 24, 2005, 07:47 PM   #44
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pump is my vote......an auto is still a good gun if you like them....
had a rem 1100 and loved it was a good gun....but i like pumps now
over the auto.....



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Old June 24, 2005, 07:57 PM   #45
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bought my rem 1187 at 16. it was used. i didnt even know how to clean it till about 3 years and 600 rds later.

i shot the cheapest ammo i could find. i shot a bit of trap.
i never had any failures.
that gun owes me nothing.
i dont know why anyone would want to complicate a simple trigger pull with cocking as well.

i like to know that if the girl, or brother or father needs to shoot it, they can just pull the trigger. 4 times, as fast as they want
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