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Old June 11, 2005, 03:12 PM   #26
threefivesevenmag
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More Or Less.

Hey.

I carry two guns at all times. My Glock 19 and S & W 642 Airweight. I rarely carry an extra magazine, but do from time to time.

I think more ammo is a good thing in some situations, but who knows what situation or lifestyle you adapt your carry to. Some people just don't want to carry extra ammo, and that's an okay thing.

I figure, the best thing to do is be situationally aware and try to stay out of trouble. If you have to use your weapon...know that your mind is the best weapon. What I mean is, no gunfight or fight should be a static affair. Expect to take cover, fire, and possibly be fired upon, grabbed, chased, pushed, trip, any number of possibilities. The best way to manage this is practice, but also know any situation that goes to guns will probably be 180 degrees different than expected.

I also carry two guns because I don't know which one I will be able to access if I was ever in a confrontation. One is in the weak hand pocket, another IWB strongside. If you have to clear your weapon, it might not be how we expect or be able to do, especially if you are grappling or fighting with hands/feet first. That is why I carry two guns. Also, because another gun is usually the fastest reload and quickest way to clear a jam/misfire. At least, I believe that.

Also, I carry a knife and surefire executive defender flashlight. Both these are other options in any confrontation.

This is a bit long winded, but having extra options is better if you can have those options. I carry what I carry because it's not a hinderance to my wardrobe. I have plenty of pockets in my shorts and nothing prints on me most of the time.

Carry what you feel comfortable with and find a set up you think will work BEST for you. Everyone is different. Opinions are like elbows, everyone has two of them...mostly.

Stay Safe. Hopefully nobody has to engage 11 attackers. That'd be a bad proposition for anyone by themselves.
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Old June 11, 2005, 04:47 PM   #27
wayneinFL
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I'm strictly talking about civilian self-defense. I have a 5-shot J frame and would like to know what my chances are at running out of ammo if I ever have to use it.
I know you asked for non L.E. scenarios, but a couple of incidents involving off duty cops come to mind. These two could have happened to anyone.

One I saw on T.V. A police officer in Indiana (Marion?) happened to be doing business in a bank when it was robbed. He engaged the robber with 4 rounds out of his 5 shot revolver, missing (as he was trying not to get shot himself), and let the bad guy run out the door. He saved the last round, just in case- he left his reloads in the car. I suppose he could have just as easily been killed.

Another was an off duty cop in NY who was robbed and tried to fight back against 4 attackers. She had a 5 shot S&W j frame, ran out after shooting 3 of her attackers. She was killed.

So it can happen.

Quote:
Would my chances of being hit by lightning be greater?
Probably. Heck, I know my chances of ever needing the first round are probably less than getting hit by lightning. That doesn't mean I'm going to run around in a lightning storm holding a golf club over my head either. (Unless it's a 1 iron. As Lee Trevino once said, not even God can hit a 1 iron.)

That said I have to admit I carry a j-frame + a speedloader most of the time. But if I really think I might end up in a bad situation, I carry my Glock 30 or 20 and a spare mag.
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:25 AM   #28
Jack Malloy
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Most LE tactics trainers will tell you that the Newhall Incident was not so much about running out of ammo as it was not hitting what was aimed at.
The officers in question fired low powered .38 rounds in training and full power ammo on the street.
I think Massad Ayoob pointed out when he did an article on that situation that other officers in similar situations thought that their handgun blew up first time they fired a magnum with no hearing protection.

The only actual case I know of where somebody ran out of ammo in a gunfight was a LE case in NY or LA where an officer was in a running,chasing fight and went through all his duty ammo. I can't remember his name, but he was pretty well known in LE circles and even Wambaugh mentioned him in a book.
I would hazard that if somebody runs out of ammo in a gunfight its more of an accuracy problem than a firepower problem. There have been incidents of people on meth and aggressive types (outlaw bikers) soaking up over a dozen 9mms with no effect. Therefore firepower alone shall not sustain thee.

My old pal Syd Wheedon over at www.sightm1911.com said it better than I ever could....
"But think about it a minute – unless you are a soldier or a guy who kicks down doors for a living, how often have you actually been in a situation (outside of an IDPA match) in which there was a high likelihood of needing to fire 16-30 rounds? I have read the gun news almost every day for years and the instances in which an armed civilian has been called upon to shoot it out with a gang of heavily armed adversaries are exceedingly rare. And further, the sad fact is that if you have to go up against a half dozen armed people your odds of winning aren’t very good even with a gun that holds 15 rounds. Generally, violent crime is a matter of 1, 2 or 3 against 1 according to Justice Department statistics. The overwhelming majority of people who commit violent crimes against strangers are trying to steal something or commit a sexual assault. These people are looking for a score, not a gunfight. "
Stats show the typical gunfight is about three rounds in less than ten feet, and has been for decades.
The trend to LE use of autoloaders has just seen more officers wasting ammo with spray and pray stupidity than increasing hits under pressure. Some people lose it when in a stressfull situation and just start yanking the trigger. That will get you killed no matter what type of weapon you carry or how many rounds it holds.
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:38 AM   #29
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But think about it a minute – unless you are a soldier or a guy who kicks down doors for a living, how often have you actually been in a situation (outside of an IDPA match) in which there was a high likelihood of needing to fire 16-30 rounds?
I can't say I often find myself in a situation with a high likelyhood of needing to fire even one round, but this doesn't mean I carry an unloaded gun, either.
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Old June 12, 2005, 10:26 AM   #30
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When SHTF I would rather not sell myself short. I'm hoping I'll never have to shoot at anyone but if the time comes I want to do everything I can to make sure I will come out ahead.
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Old June 12, 2005, 11:19 AM   #31
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Just my look at it....

Situation dictates...... Sorry to use this old saying but it's never more true than it is today....

History has taught a lot of lessons in tactics and equipment needs. History also shows this present day society to be very people friendly. Law enforcement has very high standards and I feel the training of these men and women gets better with time. That much said, short falls and problems will take place. It's the law of nature and I think the world is darn good. Murphy's Law will always play a trump card when it is expected least.
My own feeling for arming and dealing with day to day is just simple. I like to go quickly and cause little wake. If I end up in something there is a chance I missed a warning sign. I carry 9-10 9mm JHP's and feel I have my self covered adequate. Now, if my job was still in daily law enforcement I would want to carry as much ammo and backup as I could and still do my job. A law officer is sorta like a hunter in my eyes. He or she is going out to hunt for trouble and often have to subject self right into a lion's mouth. The normal average citizen shouldn't be taking this role. Most aren't trained for it and most aren't wealthy enough to go take it on as a hobby. If the LEO is having to step in I am sure they have reserve forces on way or at a ready. Can the daily citizen have that luxary? I feel an individual has to make the choice with reason of location, history of area, known hostile climate or environment. Sure I could run into hostile large numbers that want to all kill me. If so fate has thrown the trump card and I can fight hard with purpose and hope after a few attackers fall the rest of the cowards will turn tail.... The criminal I have studied tends to be just that, a coward. They picked the line of work for a number of reasons. Mostly because they are not highly educated, family members showed the way, lazy, sold their sole and have no regard for civil law and order.
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Old June 12, 2005, 12:45 PM   #32
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A few comments:
Quote:
The criminal I have studied tends to be just that, a coward.
Quote:
BG's are rarely willing to charge into gunfire and they're not exactly suicidal ninjas
These are certainly a true statements. However, we are all aware of incidents where the bad guy(s) chose to shoot it out with numerous, well-armed, police officers. Not exactly the actions of cowards. Talk to anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time in the corrections field and I am sure they can relate a story or two about an ultra-violent inmate. A surprising number of people are simply not impressed by a gun. You do not get to pick the guy who tries to rob/carjack/kill you.

Quote:
Stats show the typical gunfight is about three rounds in less than ten feet, and has been for decades.
There is no such thing as a "typical gunfight". The majority of gunfights may have a number of factors in common, but there is no guarantee that if you are called upon to defend yourself with a firearm the situation will conform to the statistical majority. The most widely studied gunfights tend to be those where the good guys had difficulty or failed. Newhall, Miami, North Hollywood. What do they have in common? They are all deviations from the "typical gunfight."

A lethal force encounter is a statistically rare occurance, yet we prepare for just such an event. Why does the logic that drives the preparation not extend into how we prepare? No one can tell you what your gunfight will require of you or your equipment. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

625,
A five shot revolver may be all you need. Of course we may be referring the next guy who asks the same question to "AYOOB FILES The 625 Incident: The Necessity of a J-Frame Reload." A spare speedloader/speedstrip or two is cheap insurance.
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Old June 12, 2005, 08:32 PM   #33
XavierBreath
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Travis Neel, private citizen.
January 21, 1994
Houston Texas
39 rounds from his CZ75.
While not an example of a person running out of ammo, if Mr. Neel had been taking a revolver to the range that day, he and a sheriff's deputy, Frank Flores, would now be in the cemetery.

Just outside Houston, Texas, city limits, on January 21, 1994, Neel watched as Harris County Deputy Frank Flores stopped a stolen Jeep Cherokee. The three occupants of the Jeep were members of an organized car-theft ring. As Flores walked toward the Jeep, one of the thieves hid in the back seat and ambushed the deputy.

Flores was shot four times and collapsed on the street. Neel witnessed the shooting and went to the defense of the deputy. He carried two 9mm semiautomatics in his truck. Opening fire, he prevented the suspects from continuing to shoot Deputy Flores. Neel shot up one clip and then another. He stated in later testimony before a congressional subcommittee hearing on crime that his greatest fear was that an innocent bystander would get hurt, or that he would be killed by the thieves, and people would think he was one of them.

When their automobile became boxed in, the car thieves attempted to car-jack another vehicle. But Neel drove them away with rapid fire. The suspects finally fled on foot and were captured a few hours later. The fallen deputy recuperated, and Neel was proclaimed by the Harris County Deputy Sheriffs Union to be "Citizen of the Year, 1994."



http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:11 PM   #34
wayneinFL
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39 rounds? Zoiks!

I have to admit I probably have that many reloads in my van. All this time I thought I was nuts, and I'm just prepared.

Seriously, I feel one more gun never hurt anything, and neither does one more round.
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
we are all aware of incidents where the bad guy(s) chose to shoot it out with numerous, well-armed, police officers.
There's no question that these guys are out there. However, it's worth noting that in many of these types of cases, the option to flee is no longer available to the criminal. In other words, his only choices are die or be caught. Generally speaking, the criminal can always flee from an armed encounter with a non-LEO citizen.

It's also worth noting that a criminal who gets into a confrontation with police KNOWS he's getting into an armed encounter up front. In a typical mugging, the criminal expects an unarmed victim.

I'm not saying that people should plan for the criminal to run at the sight of the gun or at the sound of the shot, but if we're talking about what is likely or unlikely, that's a different story.
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:56 PM   #36
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The armed criminal has the advantage over you... He is determined to get away... He knows he a "dead man" and therefore he is willing to kill you to get you out of his way.

In the civilian scenario he will more than likely try to run...

But if he can't get away he will fight harder to kill you than you will to kill him.
So, if you are not PRE-disposed to killing him... RUN!

My J-Frame is carried ONLY when I can't carry my automatic.

If you are not confident that you can place your first round right where you want it... and then follow it with two more... then you need more bullets. Or you need to be very quick to reload.

No, I'm sorry, I have never heard of, or read about, a civilian who was killed because he ran out of ammo.

You must be able to "hurry up to slow down" in a crisis... If you don't know what this means... find out, because in the crisis, your brain needs to shift into "slow motion" and direct your muscles to move quickly and steadily as if you were not in danger at all and totally in charge...

Only mental visualization and physical practice, at home, and on the range, added to experience, can get you ready for that.

After your first "near death experience" (assuming you survive it) you will be a whole different person when it comes to a crisis.

My wise old Mother was fond of saying "timing is everything", but, when the timing sucks, I think a calm mind is pretty darned important.

The fact that you are questioning, gives you an edge...

May fortune smile on you.
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Old June 12, 2005, 10:04 PM   #37
ATW525
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Quote:
Quote:
we are all aware of incidents where the bad guy(s) chose to shoot it out with numerous, well-armed, police officers.
There's no question that these guys are out there. However, it's worth noting that in many of these types of cases, the option to flee is no longer available to the criminal. In other words, his only choices are die or be caught. Generally speaking, the criminal can always flee from an armed encounter with a non-LEO citizen.

It's also worth noting that a criminal who gets into a confrontation with police KNOWS he's getting into an armed encounter up front. In a typical mugging, the criminal expects an unarmed victim.

I'm not saying that people should plan for the criminal to run at the sight of the gun or at the sound of the shot, but if we're talking about what is likely or unlikely, that's a different story.
Incidents with criminals shooting it out with the police don't always happen in a vaccuum. A civilian could easier find themselves caught up in the middle of such a situation by sheer misfortunate of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old June 12, 2005, 10:09 PM   #38
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However, we are all aware of incidents where the bad guy(s) chose to shoot it out with numerous, well-armed, police officers. Not exactly the actions of cowards.
Yup -- but civilian carry is quite a bit different from police carry. In the cases I'm thinking of (like the LA shootout, just about any other story) the BG's continued to engage because they were trying to escape and the police were pursuing them. That's the job of the police; engage the BG's and remain engaged until they're dead or surrendered.

A civilian's only job is to protect himself and, hopefuly, those around him. He has no need to pursue the bg's once they bug out.

The police story is interesting, but again this was the story of a civilian going the extra mile to be a hero. My hat is off to him and I'm glad he was capable of doing what he did -- but it's not clear that he couldn't have accomplishd the same thing with a lot less lead flying around.

As soon as he engaged the BG's they stopped shooting the police, and -- while not all the details are there -- they did try to make a getaway. Probably would have been safer to just let them carjack another car and get away and let the police take care of it. I don't know the whole situation, but 19 bullets is a lot be popping off if you've got uninvolved innocents in the area.

My first priority when I carry is the defense of myself and my family. And five rounds will do that quite nicely.

More is always better, but the difference between having 5 rounds of .38 hollowpoints at your disposal vs. just a disapproving tone of voice is huge.

Carry what you can, take care of yourself first, and make your shots count. And feel safe with 5 for sure.
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Old June 12, 2005, 10:12 PM   #39
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Incidents with criminals shooting it out with the police don't always happen in a vaccuum. A civilian could easier find themselves caught up in the middle of such a situation by sheer misfortunate of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And if this does happen to you, for GOD'S SAKE keep that gun concealed whether you've got a 5 shooter or a high cap auto and rely on cover. If the cops are fighting for their lives they're going to shoot anybody with a gun not in the blue. And the bad guys aren't going to worry about anybody but the cops.
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Old June 13, 2005, 03:40 AM   #40
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Quote:
The police story is interesting, but again this was the story of a civilian going the extra mile to be a hero.
The full story of Travis Neel and Deputy Flores (and others) can be found in The Best Defense: True Stories of Intended Victims Who Defended Themselves With a Firearm by Robert Waters. It's a good read.

While I would tend to agree with GI's assertations, I cannot argue with a man who intervened and without question saved another's life. I do not think Mr. Neel's motivations were to "to be a hero."
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Old June 13, 2005, 09:59 AM   #41
625
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Thank you all for your replies.
I think I will carry at least one speed loader if I carry this particular gun.
Some interesting and thoughtful posts, thanks again.
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Old June 15, 2005, 01:43 PM   #42
David Armstrong
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Contrary to some claims, there is a good foundation for the "typical gunfight" and how it impacts the carry process. The 5-shot snub will be sufficient for virtually all CCW situations. The issue is if you want to concern yourself with worrying about an event with a fraction of a percent probability, and if you do concern yourself with it what is the cost. Environment, employment, situational factors---all can become variables to consider.
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Old June 15, 2005, 03:03 PM   #43
Garand Illusion
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I do not think Mr. Neel's motivations were to "to be a hero."
I should mention that I didn't really mean to question Neel's intentions. My point was that he went beyond simple self defense to engage multiple bad guys in defense of another.

And while I do question the number of rounds fired (I wasn't there so I don't know -- I might have done the same thing if similarly armed and courageous enough) no one was hurt and a life was saved and BG's got their just desserts.

So in my mind, Neel WAS a hero regardless of his intentions or what he was thinking. Anyone who steps out of their way to help another at risk of his/her own life is a hero (or for that matter anyone who does so as part of their job, like a LEO or soldier).
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Old June 15, 2005, 06:58 PM   #44
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Although I am a VietNam era veteran, I was not unfortunate enough to have to go to Vietnam - I spent most of my Army days in Alaska instead. But I did know a lot of men who had served over there. One of the key infantry tactics that they used in a fire fight was what they called "suppressing fire". They would lay down a heavy barrage of fire that was intended to keep the enemy from being able to fire back effectively.

I bring this up on this thread because in a self defense situation it is not completely unlikely that at some point you might need to do something similar - fire some rounds to keep the bad guys head down - and therefore would need as much ammo as possible.
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Old June 15, 2005, 07:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
I bring this up on this thread because in a self defense situation it is not completely unlikely that at some point you might need to do something similar - fire some rounds to keep the bad guys head down - and therefore would need as much ammo as possible.
I agree, but I already know there's plenty of people who are going to be horrified at the thought of using "suppressive fire" in self defense. Personally, I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.
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Old June 15, 2005, 08:33 PM   #46
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Personally; I would rather horrify some people than be shot because I was trying to please the "PC crowd".

In almost every engagement superior fire power wins, not always, but the in the vast majority of the time he who had the most firepower walks away.
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Old June 15, 2005, 09:38 PM   #47
Garand Illusion
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Most modern day commanders talk about "volume of fire." If you can control the volume of fire you can win the day. That's why our forces making "thunder runs" into Baghdad went through so many tens of thousands of rounds.

But again ... as a civilian you don't have the same situation as a LEO or a soldier. Both of the latter have a duty to engage the enemy and stay engaged until the enemy surrenders or dies.

A civilian's "duty" is to defend himself or others until he gets to cover or the BG runs away -- and since the BG's are generally not Russian special forces but rather just some guys who REALLY want to get out of there before the cops (or more cops) show up, the rules are different than for soldiers in combat or cops engaging bank robbers.

If you want to carry a half dozen mags and a primary and backup, more power to you. I'm all for your right to do it, and if it's what you feel you need then it's what you need.

But a civilian with a single firearm has gained the advantage he is seeking of being armed and not defenseless, and more bullets are pretty much just extra weight. A 5 shot is plenty for general self defense,though a speedloader of another 5 can't hurt.

If you know you have mafia hit men/foreign agents hunting you down you could be the exception to the above, but I doubt anyone on this board matches either of those.
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Old June 15, 2005, 11:38 PM   #48
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ammo

I struggle with this all the time. I usually choose between a 5 shot revolver with no reloads (5), a glock 32 with no reloads (13), a 1911 (8)with no reloads, or a glock 17 with 2 reloads (19x3). With the first three I can wear IWB and a normal shirt and nobody notices I have a firearm. With the glock 17 and two mags I need to wear a 5.11 vest to cover it up. So do I really need 57 (19x3) rounds? The one time I was violently attacked was in Washington, D.C. where handguns, pepperspray, knives, everything is basically illegal unless you are a criminal. And there were more than 5 attackers and I was beat pretty bad since I fought off the first guy (didn't see his buddies who were behind me). I had no weapons since I was returning from a work function in a federal building that checked for weapons. And I was in the public metro subway system riding back to Virginia.

Anyway I think back to that and wonder if having my 5 shot would have made a difference. I think so in that with these cowards if I shot up the first guy the rest probably would have run instead of stood their ground and fight. There's always a chance some scumbag will stand and fight and so my 57 rounds might come in handy but I think most criminals will high tail it out of there. So my 13 round glock32 or even 5 shot revolver is better than nothing. But if I wear some extra clothing my glock 17 comes with me. can't hurt to have extra ammo. And I'm still ****** off at laws that left my life in the hands of criminals that fateful night.
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