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Old May 14, 2005, 09:34 AM   #101
Bullrock
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Quote:
have come to the conclusion that the Firing Line is little more than a collection of people who either want to find a reason to shoot something, or find excuse those who do kill without cause. And that is nonsense.
I think including all of us is a little over the top faraway, but I can understand your frustration. There are some who look for any excuse to shoot, and some LEO types that will try to justify any wrong action the police take.

This shooting was WRONG! While they have all apologized through an attorney, they should be prosecuted! PERIOD!
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Old May 14, 2005, 10:14 AM   #102
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I think including all of us is a little over the top faraway, but I can understand your frustration. There are some who look for any excuse to shoot, and some LEO types that will try to justify any wrong action the police take.
I think he had a chip on his shoulder.
There are people who won't back down no matter what, and I think he was one of those individuals.

It seemed like he read posts and argued just to argue.
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Old May 14, 2005, 01:41 PM   #103
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Hey Batman...How you doing with that new CZ?
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Old May 14, 2005, 08:13 PM   #104
PythonGuy
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The mere fact they shot one of their own, who thank god had a vest on, is proof enough this was a "sloppy" (at the least) action by the Police. That's not a knock against Police, lets get real here, we have to pay them, any victims, and may ourselves (or worse, our loved ones) be shot in this kind of situation. Why the outrage at questioning the training and techniques? Shouldn't we all insist on a safe AND effective Police force? Its silly to twist this into anything less then a screw up that needs to be addressed and corrected. If WE do a bad job at work won't we hear about it and receive feedback and/or disciplinary action? Lets get real people and intelligently address the problem instead of covering it up because of the nature of police work. We know most of the Police are good, hard working dedicated professionals, shouldn't they all be?
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Old May 14, 2005, 08:35 PM   #105
FrankDrebin
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Shouldn't we all insist on a safe AND effective Police force?
"Safe" and "Effective" are relative and both compromises. Police everywhere at trained to be mindful of crossfire situations. Just because a guy got hit during a crossfire doesn't mean their training was inadequate. Stuff happens. Also, training resources are finite. You could double or triple the firearms training time, but that would come at the expense of other areas. And it still wouldn't guarantee, or even significantly reduce the chances that bad things didn't happen during a subsequent shooting.



Aside from telling officers "Remember what happened to officers X, Y, and Z....Don't do what they did. Make sure you don't shoot the cop that is standing on the other side of your target" How would you change training? Tell the cops to only approach suspect vehicles from the drivers side? Tell all cops on the driver side to shoot and all cops on the passener side to duck? These kinds of incidents are too dynamic to train for individually. Common sense should prevail but when there are 5 or 6 different sets of "common sense" present, these things are bound to happen sometimes through no one individual's fault. What's worse than the incident is when administration has to "blame" someone because they feel they're not doing their jobs if they can't pin responsibility on a simple cause or person after a complex event.
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If WE do a bad job at work won't we hear about it and receive feedback and/or disciplinary action?
This isn't some accountant putting a figure in a wrong column, or a lawyer failing to submit paperwork on time or a manager who failed to schedule enough people to work in a given day. This is a half dozen guys in what they reasonably believe to be a life or death situation, all perceiving things probably a little bit differently and taking actions based on their perceptions that are gained and evaluated in, at most, a couple seconds. They should NOT be punished just because YOU would be punished in a different job for a different mistake. As far as "feedback", what makes you think they're not going to receive "feedback"?
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Old May 14, 2005, 09:14 PM   #106
PythonGuy
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Frank,

My statement about feedback was more related to our discussion here and how some are taking those that feel this was handled badly, to task, as if we shouldn't comment negatively because the incident involves Police. When someone, like you, cuts and pastes individual comments, in effect, parsing words, it greatly effects the original content of the post making it seem different from what was intended. I see you are skilled in this method of debate, bully for you, but I am not debating you, just making a comment/observation. I know what it (the situation) is, and isn't, and don't need to be patronized by your comments. You make quite a few suppositions yourself for someone that only knows what they read of the situation, not more indepth investigative facts. You like to parse words go debate Bill Clinton, he is a master of it.
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Old May 14, 2005, 09:28 PM   #107
FrankDrebin
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Frank,

My statement about feedback was more related to our discussion here and how some are taking those that feel this was handled badly, to task, as if we shouldn't comment negatively because the incident involves Police. When someone, like you, cuts and pastes individual comments, in effect, parsing words, it greatly affects the original content of the post making it seem different from what was intended.
Well, let me just post the whole thing then so we can be clear with each other. I wouldn't want to parse any words.

Quote:
The mere fact they shot one of their own, who thank god had a vest on, is proof enough this was a "sloppy" (at the least) action by the Police. That's not a knock against Police, lets get real here, we have to pay them, any victims, and may ourselves (or worse, our loved ones) be shot in this kind of situation. Why the outrage at questioning the training and techniques? Shouldn't we all insist on a safe AND effective Police force? Its silly to twist this into anything less then a screw up that needs to be addressed and corrected. If WE do a bad job at work won't we hear about it and receive feedback and/or disciplinary action? Lets get real people and intelligently address the problem instead of covering it up because of the nature of police work. We know most of the Police are good, hard working dedicated professionals, shouldn't they all be?
You said, in the above context:

Quote:
If WE do a bad job at work won't we hear about it and receive feedback and/or disciplinary action? Lets get real people and intelligently address the problem instead of covering it up because of the nature of police work.
Your profile says that you're an office manager. I'm going to assume that when you say "we", those that you include in "we" and in particular the office managers among the "we" don't have their mistakes plastered on national news unless you're the head office manager of Enron. So, at the risk of parsing words, YOU aren't likely to receive the kind of feedback that you're providing on an internet forum as the result of a national news story based on your mistake. So I stand by my original statement that the police should not be subject to discipline merely, or in any fashion or amount because YOU would be subject to discipline in your job for a totally different kind of mistake that is related to your type of work.

Quote:
Its silly to twist this into anything less then a screw up that needs to be addressed and corrected
Anything less than a screw up? They got a run about shots fired. They had information (according to one report) that a described suspect in a described vehicle was armed and dangerous. They found the suspect and took him into custody. "This" was FAR less than a "screw up". There was one aspect and only one, as far as I can see, that should have been done differently in the safety of 20-20 hindsight (besides more effective driver's education training as far as what do do when there's a police car behind you with flashing lights) and THAT would be to have all the cops on one side of the truck to avoid shooting any cops on the OTHER side of the truck. THAT is not going to happen in the real world no matter how much training you provide on crossfire avoidance. Things happen too quickly in the real world to avoid all crossfire incidents all the time, especially when shooting at a moving target in a moving vehicle.
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Old May 14, 2005, 09:33 PM   #108
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Frank, Frank Frank,

Of course you do, I wouldn't expect anything less from you. By the way the "we" is meant to reflect all forum members, surely you can figure that out. And by the way, when's the last time an office manager shot up an SUV and a community? Who is the public servant, an office manager or a police officer? Your logic is as full of holes as a house in Compton.

Last edited by PythonGuy; May 15, 2005 at 06:51 AM.
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Old May 14, 2005, 09:49 PM   #109
FrankDrebin
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Well, one good thing that will come out of this shooting is that the city of Compton will be dropping the Sheriff's department contract and starting its own police department again. Hopefully, the department's personnel will mirror the community they serve and they won't have these kinds of problems anymore...
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Old May 15, 2005, 08:27 AM   #110
kennybs plbg
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I remember a few years back in california there was a white bronco that wouldn't stop for the police, it was driven by a murder suspect and known drug user at the same high speeds of 30-35mph. He was armed and considered dangerous(4000 lb SUV). I wonder why the police didn't line up and take him out with a few hundred rounds? Would have seemed justifyed under the conditions, not much different from what happened here.

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Old May 15, 2005, 08:50 AM   #111
FrankDrebin
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I'm just guessing, but maybe because no shots had been fired and AC didn't try to run any cops over, and they were on the phone with AC and AC said the Juice had the gun to his head as if he were going to shoot himself? And the cops knew AC was driving and reasonably believed that he was not the crazy guy with the gun?
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Old May 15, 2005, 12:19 PM   #112
Bullrock
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kennybs plbg

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I remember a few years back in california there was a white bronco that wouldn't stop for the police, it was driven by a murder suspect and known drug user at the same high speeds of 30-35mph. He was armed and considered dangerous(4000 lb SUV). I wonder why the police didn't line up and take him out with a few hundred rounds? Would have seemed justifyed under the conditions, not much different from what happened here.
I like your point and, fair comparison...
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Old May 15, 2005, 12:35 PM   #113
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The way I seen it if that SUV hadn't hit the police car another 20 feet they would have been in a perfect crossfire then there could have been some dead cops.Don't even want to talk about the shooting skills.All it takes is one well aimed shot not 120 poor shots could I do it or any of use I'm not sure.
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