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Old April 2, 2005, 10:27 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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"a shot to ANY part of the body usually drops the BG immediately"

Now that is a dangerous assumption
It is not an assumption. In the majority of cases, the shootee gives up after being shot, regardless of placement. I didn't say that one should EXPECT this result, just noted that's what usually happens. Furthermore this "soundbite" was only part of a sentence--the first part of that sentence was "See my post". If one were to read my earlier post on this thread (as suggested by this phrase) one would see that in it I discussed the possibility that the defender is actually required to physically disable the attacker and talked about specifically what would be required to stop an attacker in that situation.
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Old April 3, 2005, 09:24 AM   #27
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According to books I have read, You should aim for the cardiovascular Triangle which is formed by Both nipples to the adam's apple. Body mass is too vague. The only time to aim for the head is if the BG is behind something and that is your only target or if he has body armor on. In that case, you want to shoot between the eyebrows down the the nose. Anything higher can hit the slope of the head and may skim off. Anything lower may pass through without hitting anything vital. If the BG is wearing body armor, it is suggested to shoot the head or the pelvis.
That is the beauty of books. You get presented with overly easily solutions sometimes. The cardiovascular triangle sounds like a good idea, but unfortunately you don't always get presented with a full frontal view of a shirtless guy so that you can determine the parameters of the CV triangle. On top of that, the CV triangle unnecessarily creates a target area missing part of the lungs and lower heart and includes places outside of the critical organs if you do hit the nipples.

I really liked the suggestions for shot placement on head shots that you shoot for between the eyebrows. It is a novel idea as well, but what makes you think you will get a shot at his eyebrows? Usually folks suggest shooting the triangle formed by the eyes and nose. A nose hit in that case will miss the brain entirely of the shot is angled downward. Even so, the idea of the eyes and nose triangle is that it represets a lot of thin bone and tissue, hence giving the slug access to the brain more easily. Shooting between the eyebrows means trying to penetrate on of the strongest parts of the skull. If a bullet will deflect from the skull, it will likely be from a hard part. You don't stand much chance of it deflecting out of an orbit. Even so, orbits and nose are hard to hit.

You said body mass is too vague of a description. Actually, it is pretty good. More appropriate is for shooting center of mass for what you have presented to you. Center of mass presented means being able to fire with the greatest amount of room for error should your shot not be precise. Many folks confuse center of mass with center of chest. Center of chest will land shots in the heart/lung area. Center of mass drops that point to the lowest portion of the sternum or just below.

Quote:
Thats exactly what he had mentioned! The femoral neck (I think).
It would be great to be able to hit the femoral neck if you had to make a pelvis shot. The first problem is that the femoral neck isn't part of the pelvis. So the 'pelvic shot' is a misnomer. Next, I would bet dollars to donuts that very few people are able to accurately be able to tell precisely where the femoral necks are on a person, especially one wearing clothes, and where they would have to shoot in order for the round to hit the neck. In other words, they are going to have to adjust their aim point to compensate for the angle of the shot so that the shot travels down into the neck. Heck, I would bet that most folks don't even know where the greater trochanter is located relative to the ilium or which bone is actually part of the femur and which is part of the pelvis. They surely won't be able to tell if the shootee is wearing clothing.

In short, trying to hit the femoral neck is going to be very tough since few people will actually know where it is actually located or how to spot that location on a clothed person.
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Old April 9, 2005, 04:36 AM   #28
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Its a very good idea...

if you know when to use it. Swat teams use it when they think the person is using body armor. If they don't get a reaction from double taps to the 10 ring. They go for "pockets" to stop the individual. It is not the first target, but I would go for pockets before a head shot anyday All this talk about where to put the bullet is driving me crazy. It is this simple You shoot center mass until you get a reaction. Some people say shoot at the target 1.2 times in the upper left shoulder between the anus and skull. Thats bs! Sometimes you can't even tell you are hitting the target more or less pinpoint a shot. Don't count your rounds! Program your mind to shoot until you get a reaction. You shoot someone twice and pause...."umm ok did i hit you? no you didnt ok let me shoot you again" haha it does't work that way sorry!
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Old April 9, 2005, 05:25 AM   #29
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Does anyone seriously think that at the time of an urgent shooting that they will be aiming at a spot? It's not like that at all - center of mass, center of mass, center of mass - as much as you can. Then reload and do it again, if necessary.
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Old April 9, 2005, 07:35 AM   #30
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Double Naught Spy got it right in post #8, with one exception.

The cause of better than 80% of hip fractures in the elderly is indeed in the acetabulum or the trochanter of the femur, weakened through osteoporosis. What commonly occurs is the elderly person falls. The weakest part of the hip joint (whether trochanter or acetabulum) is compromised through a partial fracture. Either the elderly person themself tries to stand, or someone else tries to help them up. The elderly person must put weight on the joint to stand. The weight completes the process, and you have a total fracture. The elderly person often lies about the fall if they were alone, because they are scared of nursing home placement. The bruises tell the story though. Occasionally the same area will fracture due to additional weight the person tries to carry, or a movement that places undue stress on the joint. Moral is: Leave them on the floor and call the paramedics. Have the paramedics use a "scoop" or "clamshell" to get them off the floor. The recovery time from a partial fracture will be much less.

I shoot COM, and I know anatomy pretty well from my work. I will shoot COM while seeking cover. For me, it's a matter of tactics. I'm shooting at a moving target while I'm moving myself, and I'm under considerable stress. A larger target yeilds a higher probability of a hit. COM is the larger target. It has a lot of stuff that can slow down the BG. It is enclosed by bones about 3/8 thick, and exposed between them. There is a high probability of significant penetration. If I feel I am down to half capacity with a threat still coming, I might try for a head shot if it presents a good option. If it is my only option, I'm taking it.

I'm of the opinion that "pelvic shots" are an attempt to rewrite a book that is already written well. Trainers have to improve their product to keep customers coming back. One thing about the "pelvic shot" is exactly what has been discussed here. It's a small target. It also moves quickly, and it can be obstructed by the ilium from a partially frontal shot. I don't think I would ever try a shot to this area. If I had to take a shot to the pelvis because none other was available, I would try for the pubis. This is the pelvic bone that crosses in front of the pelvis. It has a permanent joint in the center and can be quite fragile there. If you feel your belly directly above your 'nads, you will feel this bone about 2 and a half inches in (or 4 inches in some folks ) This area is the support structure for all the inner tendons of both legs. Shatter it, and the person is no longer walking. The problem again is the target size. You are talking about a 1 inch diameter area on a moving target. It could easily be a waste of firepower. If for some reason, however, I could not get a COM or head shot, and I had a frontal below the waist selection available, This is the area I would shoot.

The most important aspect of survival (at least for Joe Civilan) is to get the hell out of there, or finding cover if you cannot. That means moving. Moving is more important than shooting IMHO. Your movement makes you a much more difficult target, especially if you are moving laterally. It effectively neutralizes the BG's ability and makes him rely on luck. Being able to shoot accurately on the move makes you a very dangerous person to be shooting at.

The next time you are at the range take a milk jug, 50 feet of string and a stake. Tie the string to the jug, set the stake out about 20 feet and place the jug to the side about 20 feet away from the stake. Place the string around the stake and back to your shooting postion, in effect forming a right angle from above. Now have a buddy pull the jug laterally across your field of fire while you try to hit it. When you get to where you can hit it consistently, try it while moving yourself in another direction. Try it one handed. Do not stop to shoot. Keep moving. It will quickly become apparent how inadequate target shooting is for self defense shooting.
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Old April 9, 2005, 07:39 AM   #31
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if you know when to use it. Swat teams use it when they think the person is using body armor. If they don't get a reaction from double taps to the 10 ring. They go for "pockets" to stop the individual. It is not the first target, but I would go for pockets before a head shot anyday All this talk about where to put the bullet is driving me crazy. It is this simple You shoot center mass until you get a reaction. Some people say shoot at the target 1.2 times in the upper left shoulder between the anus and skull. Thats bs! Sometimes you can't even tell you are hitting the target more or less pinpoint a shot. Don't count your rounds! Program your mind to shoot until you get a reaction. You shoot someone twice and pause...."umm ok did i hit you? no you didnt ok let me shoot you again" haha it does't work that way sorry!
So you are saying not to aim at a point, then point out that SWAT aims at pockets for failure to stop reactions? Pockets would be spots, but what do you do if the bad guy is in a dress or trousers with no pockets?

Your notion that you should shoot someone twice and then pause is naive. You imply that the pause is a shot effect assessment. Simply put, you should not be pausing. You should be assessing your shots in real time. If your target reappears in your sights after recoil, then your target isn't down and so that is when you repeat. In Tyler, Texas, the good samaritan apparently did pause to assess and now he is dead.

I have no idea what you mean by 1.2 times in the upper left shoulder between the anus and head. Just what is supposed to be hit in the upper left shoulder that is critical? Is sure as heck is NOT the heart or lung. I take it that the upper left shoulder is specified because that is where many people think the heart is located. I blame this on a poor understanding of anatomy and being taught to do the Pledge of Allegiance with one's hand over the heart as learned in grade school and we were instructor to put that hand on the upper left of the chest. The problem is, the heart isn't there. Think about it, when doing CPR, where are the compressions to take place? They take place at the sternum, in the center of the chest.

Quote:
Does anyone seriously think that at the time of an urgent shooting that they will be aiming at a spot? It's not like that at all - center of mass, center of mass, center of mass - as much as you can. Then reload and do it again, if necessary.
Two incidents, North Hollywood Bank Robbery and Tyler, Texas. Center mass shots just got good people hurt in CA and one killed in Texas because the bad guys had on body armor and the good guys could not hit the head, at least not for a considerable amount of time. That is why we do failure to stop drills.

FYI, center mass is a spot, just not an anatomically named spot.
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Old April 9, 2005, 09:56 AM   #32
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No I'm saying what I am saying...

"I have no idea what you mean by 1.2 times in the upper left shoulder between the anus and head." This was a joke What I am saying is this.....Say I am clearing my hallway in my house. A person Jumps out from one of the bedroom doors...am i going to think and aim for a perfect shot? No i am not ..... i dont have time to aim like most ppl do at the range....(set there 5 mins waiting for my gun to lineup) I sight align..to...center mass.......trigger pull ..... (of course this is after u ID the person as a skumbag)

People that are trained in clearing knows what I am talking about. You dont need to be a Dr or a PHD to stop a skumbag Go ahead ask me how I know I will send in my resume
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Old April 9, 2005, 10:11 AM   #33
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Center mass..

Center mass is an area(my point of view). If a person was really close I would start my trigger pulls much earlier than if someone was at 20 feet. A spot would be if you aimed your gun and focused on one spot? I think there is a time for point shooting and a time for sights. There must be a balance! I would point shoot if someone was real close.(I mean real close)
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Old April 9, 2005, 06:43 PM   #34
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DoubleNaught,
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It would be great to be able to hit the femoral neck if you had to make a pelvis shot. The first problem is that the femoral neck isn't part of the pelvis. So the 'pelvic shot' is a misnomer. Next, I would bet dollars to donuts that very few people are able to accurately be able to tell precisely where the femoral necks are on a person, especially one wearing clothes, and where they would have to shoot in order for the round to hit the neck. In other words, they are going to have to adjust their aim point to compensate for the angle of the shot so that the shot travels down into the neck. Heck, I would bet that most folks don't even know where the greater trochanter is located relative to the ilium or which bone is actually part of the femur and which is part of the pelvis. They surely won't be able to tell if the shootee is wearing clothing.

Thats why I wrote this in my earlier reply.
Quote:
The thing that gets me is that it is a small target, and it is not exactly defined externally. It's not like people have a mark on their shorts showing where the femoral neck is.

So hitting a target that small, thats moving, and there is no indicator of where it is....well, thats a stretch.
I wrote my responses basically saying that shooting for the hips/pelvis is a bad idea. Very poor chance of hitting what you need to hit.

I.G.B.
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Old April 10, 2005, 05:53 AM   #35
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As a matter of interest, would anyone in a hurry try to aim a shot at 7 yards or less?
A well practised shooter could put a magazine inside a 6in circle at that distance, without aiming (shooting instinctively) and in very quick time too.
I can do it myself, with a revolver, 6 plus 6 with a reload in between, in under 12 seconds. I have seen IPSC shooters do the same thing in half the time.
The point is 'don't waste time aiming at close range' be very familiar with your carry gun and shoot fast - if you are fussy, go for the head. Not many BG's have body armor on their heads.
I don't wan't to sound flippant,but there are 'real world' procedures and protocols designed to keep us alive when things turn bad. Aiming for a special part of the body isn't one of them.
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Old April 22, 2005, 12:11 PM   #36
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The pelvis is not a bigger target than the head

a head hit that does NOT brain him will still ring his bell for several seconds. During that time, you can fire lots of better-aimed shots. Most hits to the pelvis have no real immediate effect. Nearly all hits to the head will do so. So, aim at the chest, but if a fast pair of shots there have no effect, switch to the head. Don't confuse your training with any other targets.

Point shooters have to cheat to beat aimed fire users, time wise, beyond about 10 ft. They have to carefully "line up" their bodies with the targets. Such a thing is unlikely to be practical in a real attack. There is no point in point shooting SLOWLY. If you have lots of time, why would you not use the sights? Because you are too cheap to pay $100 for luminous sight inserts?

Guys are "sure" that they can hit the chest at 25 yds. Well, if they can do that, why can't they hit the 1/3rd as big brain at 8 yds? 8 yds covers 95+% of the needed civilian defensive shooting, you know. That's 95% of the 10% of the time that just showing him your gun doesn't suffice.
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Old April 22, 2005, 12:22 PM   #37
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NO, shooting the lungs and heart is not a guaranteed

stop, either. Several hits to the chest, with good ammo, is highly likely to suffice, but it's not anything like 100% effective. (90%, maybe, depending upon the load) Men have not stopped even with 12 ga buck blasts, with many times the power of any handgun load.
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Old April 22, 2005, 05:32 PM   #38
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I can just see most of you pulling out your gun and just standing there trying to make up your mind,where you are going to shoot him.Get real pull the gun aim at the biggest part and blast away and if that don't work RUN
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Old April 26, 2005, 01:45 PM   #39
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Well, in the movie "The Professional", the pro recommended a gut shot first to incapacitate, then two to the chest. Sounds reasonable, but that was a movie.
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Old April 26, 2005, 02:26 PM   #40
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Where to shoot

Shoot for the color change. The shirt and trousers are usually different colors. Generally speaking that's the belt buckle. I have to strongly agree with a noted firearms instructor. Shoot for center mass. Center mass of whatever is offered until you have a better target. If all you can see is a hand, shoot for the center of it. Foot? Shoot the center of it. If it is at the point where one needs to shoot try for cover first. Either way, cover or not, shoot until the threat is gone. If that means following him/her to the ground, DO IT. Shoot them until they think they are dead, not until you think they are dead. It really isn't possible to kill someone too much. No sane person WANTS to get involved in a shooting. Cops, lawyers, lawsuits, etc. But if you have to shoot do what you need to do to go home when it's over without leaking body fluids.
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Old April 27, 2005, 11:42 AM   #41
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Just wondering, has anybody ever been to Mozambique? What is it like there?
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Old April 28, 2005, 08:39 PM   #42
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Dead Men Can't Testify...shoot To Kill

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Old April 28, 2005, 09:32 PM   #43
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Just came from the range...

am tired and euphoric. 150 rounds. My 5th time out. I'm writing because I have learned so much from you guys that I have improved dramatically. I can't thank all of you at TFL enough. Have cut and pasted all of your info to a separate folder. I have learned to relax, sight, breathe and squeeze. Patterns are getting tight. I love this sport. I had to tell someone... why not ya'll?!

Thanks again to all. Wish I could remember everyones names!
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Old April 28, 2005, 09:36 PM   #44
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Dead Men Can't Testify...shoot To Kill
Technically, this is correct, but just because the guy is dead does not mean that you are in the clear. While dead men can't testify, forensic evidence identified from the incident can often 'speak' for the dead. Keep in mind, that murders with no witnesses present, except for the shooter and victim, still manage to be solved.

In short, the apparent comfort taken by many shooters provided by the notion that dead men tell no tales is naive at best.
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