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Old April 21, 2005, 12:28 PM   #26
stephen426
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I'm sorry to say but some of these responses are absurd.

How are you going to grab the reins of a horse charging at you at 40 mph? How are you going to calm down a charging horse? By talking gently to it? How long would it take for a charging horse to cover 40 feet? How do you intend on grabbing the wife and kiddies before the horse covers that distance?

I'm not advocating shooting the animal either but some of these responses are crazy. Horses may be good at avoiding obstacles but is it possible it will trample your kids when it blows past?

For those who say fire a warning shot into the air... where do you think the bullet will end up? What goes up must come down. When a bullet comes down, it may end up killing someone. If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree if there is one nearby.

I'm not knowlegable about horses but I know that they are very powerful and fast animals. I would get in between the family and the horse and try to divert it by yelling and waving my arms. I would also be yelling to everyone else to get behind the truck. I just hope there would be enough time to do something because 40 feet is nothing for a horse.
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Old April 21, 2005, 02:49 PM   #27
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How are you going to calm down a charging horse? By talking gently to it?
Well, NOT by yelling at it and waving my arms

I doubt the horse would be running 40 mph if it's not actually in a race.

A horse won't trample anyone if it has anyplace else to go.

I actually have been nearly run over by a mare that was being chased by a more dominant mare. This was in a pen where I was feeding them. I just pushed myself out of the way with my arms against her oncoming chest, as I had no time to jump away. (I probably did jump at the same time)
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Old April 21, 2005, 04:28 PM   #28
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Pointfiveoh

That's true..... MOST of the time. With animals of any kind, the only thing that's for sure is that nothing's for sure But the risk is greater with more than one horse. Think of it this way. You're standing in a parking lot and someone is driving a car towards you. Odds are that they'll drive around you. Go with the odds and stand still. But you look through the windshield and see the driver looking down fiddling with the radio or cell phone. Distracted. You've read the signs that this situation is different, and you react accordingly by trying to get the driver's attention while trying to get out of the way. You have to read the signs. I think I can safely say that no horse WANTS to run over you. But if his mind is on other things? Ouch! If a horse has others running with him, the others are also a distraction to each other, hence the greater risk. I have also heard it said that horses have a very narrow (maybe 10 degrees) zone directly in front of them where they are blind, or at best have only peripheral vision. So say the experts anyhow. So again, you have to gain his attention. Wave the jacket, shirt, beer cooler (minus the beer ), etc., like mad. If you try to duck to the left or right, well, just hope he doesn't duck in the same direction at the same time. Firing a shot into the ground or (God forbid) air won't work. He can't pin the location down and you increase his panic. You have to use a visual signal. I got off on a little bit of a tangent with all the talk about reins, bit, control, ect. Sorry 'bout that. While the opportunity to grab the reins might present itself, it isn't likely. So again, the best thing to do (if there's nothing to get behind) is stand still close to your family and wave that (whatever) like crazy. No matter what you do, remember Murphy's Law. There's no guarentees.
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Old April 21, 2005, 04:58 PM   #29
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I'd sacrifice my first born son if the prize horse's name was Rumplestiltskin.
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Old April 21, 2005, 05:34 PM   #30
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A horse in the open is not likely to kill or trample anyone, and shooting at it would have been a mistake.

If the horse is charging directly at you do two things. Get something in your hand. Your shirt, your pants, your underwear, your hand, if that's all there is. Move straight toward the charging horse, and aggressively wave the shirt in your hand. The horse will change direction if there is room to do so.

Or get everyone together, get them down, and you provide the on-top cover. The horse will jump over you rather than run into you. On a race track a horse usually has no room, left, right, up, down to avoid a rider if he falls ahead of the horse.

Horses don't get angry! They run on nerves, and can easily panic. Unlike My Friend Ficker, horses usually don't give a damn about people. They do care about themselves, and even in a state of panic, will avoid running into things (and people) if there is room to avoid doing so.

I'm sure this thing happened quickly, and we're all Monday morning quarterbacking. TFL is a place to post opinion's and experience. That's my opinion, and I have the formally broken bones, and the hospital bills to back up the experience.
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Old April 21, 2005, 05:38 PM   #31
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I was in a similar situation once. A shot straigth into the earth beneth me did the job. My 9x19mm was blastin loud enough to make the beast turn on the spot...
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Old April 21, 2005, 06:08 PM   #32
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Good scenario.

I definitely would not use a gun- too many risks.
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Old April 21, 2005, 10:40 PM   #33
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Besides, like somebody else said, unless it's a county fair race, registered Thoroughbreds from winning bloodlines START at 6 figures and sometimes go to 8. Payroll deduction for a thousand years, anyone?
Uh...how about if the horse killed one of my children? Or more than one? Your horse's owner better have some damned good insurance. Nope. No payroll deduction, Capt.

I have been around horses all my life, though not in any real depth, and while I wouldn't be an advocate of pulling a weapon and blazing away, there is a very real possibility that I would do so if my children were in direct danger and the cost of animal be damned. My children are worth more than 8 figures. I figure that MY bloodline is worth more than the damned horse's.

If you really want to debate it, think about a jury making a decision on the case. Someone is bound to have video of it. If not, there's plenty of people who can attest to the fact that a "rampaging" (I'd make sure that my attorney used that word 'cause I like it so much) horse was threatening my two beautiful daughters (they'd be there in the front row in the courtroom in their prettiest little outfits) and that's why I shot it. It's only what a reasonable person would do if faced with harm to one's family.

Alternately, I guess we could show photos of my trampled daughters to the jury while pointing out that the owner of the horse hasn't wanted to settle out of court but has pushed for a trial because he obviously believes that nothing wrong happened...no big deal that my children were killed or maimed by his out-of-control animal.

Like I said, I don't advocate any scenario where you just pull your gun and start shooting. I hate these threads, actually, because a lot of it is just someone's hero fantasies at work, but I would have no problem killing an animal that threatened my family, where that animal was on two legs or four.
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Old April 21, 2005, 11:00 PM   #34
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And so would I... if it were NECESSARY. But the whole bloody point I'm trying make here is that it AIN'T necessary! There's too damned many people that are way too quick to go for a gun when there are other solutions. Law enforcement or not, a firearm is the final option. You use it only when all else fails, or when absolutely, positively nothing else will work. Here you have options. Do what I said... several times, and I guarentee you there won't BE any need for an ambulance, or lawsuits, OR THAT DAMNED GUN!
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Old April 21, 2005, 11:09 PM   #35
hdm25
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But Capt Charlie, it all happens so FAST. And I don't have the knowledge of equine psychology that you have. All I know is that my children are in jeopardy. It isn't a matter of a mean horse or anything like that at all. It's a matter of putting down a threat. Of course, a handgun isn't going to do much to a horse, but that's beside the point. The instructions that you are giving amount to a safety/survival lesson in the given circumstance but not everyone knows that or is willing to risk it.

Interesting that the topic has come up, though, because I WAS injured by a horse at the circus when I was a child. It was in a panic and was fleeing away from the cause of the panic and I was just a little kid that it didn't even notice. Nothing major but it could have been worse.

Would a horse injure someone in the given situation? Would the advice work? I hope we don't have to find out.

How about a lion escaped from it's cage at the zoo? Are you a lion psychologist, too?
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Old April 22, 2005, 01:36 AM   #36
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Well, those are all good ways to NOT CALM the horse and cause it to run even more and possibly run over somebody else.

You can sometimes calm a horse by talking to it in a low, steady voice: "easy boy - whoa, boy - easy ...." etc .... It all depends on how hard and fast it is running. If you are terrified of the horse to start with, forget it.
Yes; I have worked with horses. In the circumstance as described somebodies else are going to have to look after their own, because my immediate priority is going to be looking after mine.
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:02 PM   #37
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Hdm25

Quote:
Would a horse injure someone in the given situation? Would the advice work? I hope we don't have to find out.
And therein lies the bottom line. Let's just hope that this one never becomes reality.

Lions? Nope. Don't know a thing about 'em, except they're big, mean, & hungry. Personally on this one, I'm opting for a Brittish .600 Nitro Express in full auto, a few grenades, and an RPG.

How 'bout we merge the two scenerios? Lessee... And here they come down the home stretch. It's Leo in the lead by a nose followed by Simba! No, wait! Leo's thrown and eaten his rider! He's jumped the fence into the crowd! OH MY GOD! THE CARNAGE! THE SCREAMS!
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:50 PM   #38
bastiat
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No shooting, far enough away + rule#4 'be aware of your target and what is behind it' is not met. First priority is to get family to safety away from threat.

Oh wait, according to a poster who just joined today, I shouldn't be stating what I would do in a potential situation because some DA could find it while searching on the internet...
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:05 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by bastiat
Oh wait, according to a poster who just joined today, I shouldn't be stating what I would do in a potential situation because some DA could find it while searching on the internet...
One's post count does not give their post any less credibility.

However, in your defence bastiat, posting something so ridiculous does.
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:19 PM   #40
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Too many gun people, not listening to horse people!

They Shoot Horses, Don't They (Staring Jane Fonda & Gig Young)

I'm gone...
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:44 PM   #41
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Fonda is a spittoon.
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Old April 22, 2005, 04:34 PM   #42
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I know what she is Trip 20! Name calling isn't my thing. She was in the movie.
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Old April 23, 2005, 12:00 PM   #43
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This isn't name callingfor the sake of name calling...

She seriously got spit on the other day by a vietnam vet. Good for him.
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Old April 23, 2005, 03:14 PM   #44
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LMAOROLF!!! I had heard that story and about crashed my car I was laughing so hard...seems this guy had been waiting some 35 years to do that. He even had chewing tobacco in his mouth when he did it!!!
With that type of dedication to the fullfilment of his mission...obviously a Marine!!
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Old April 24, 2005, 11:42 AM   #45
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Wonderful...in addition to a panicked horse, have a panicked wounded horse.

Sometimes methinks there's a bit too much rationalization attempting to find something justifiable to shoot. Usually it's dogs...and normally there, unless it's some mutt mistreated to be psychotic, those can be bluffed down. And the bluffs even work on the stunning collection of miscreant rez mutts here in paradise. (Incidentally some pit bulls were used as therapy dogs for disabled kids,,,so not all were bred to 'kill'.) Bears- black bears are more of a (*(*&^ nuisance than anything else, and usually appropriate precautions will preclude needing to try to kill it. And anyway, usually with the report of a firearm they're bound for the next county. Lions, oopsie, if one of those is after you, probably the first you'll know about it is when it lands on top of you.

Perhaps there could be a few more threads about the glories of punching holes in paper. Or about the wonders of carrying a CCW, and how rare it is to even access it, let alone use it.

But then again, up here in the northern hinterlands...there's too many horses anyway...And they're all big and scary. And the rez mutts, eat kids (or sometimes the kids eat them? Always confused about that one...)
Think my kel tec p-32 is adequete to deal with these free roaming menaces?
Especially before we all disappear into maws red with blood, or have our precious remains trampled into the sodden soil.
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Old April 24, 2005, 12:22 PM   #46
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Hey Faraway, I was going to use some of your post to quote, but it was so damn good, and right on, I would have had to quote your entire post.

The only place I'd differ with you is in the carry. The horse described in the scenario is a domestic animal ( as oppossed to the wild mustangs up your way, if there are any left), and there is no excuse for shooting it. A moose (huge wild animal) will charge during rutting season, and I agree regarding the Black Bear, but in the last several years they have become quite pesky here. So when I'm in the wilds I usually carry a .357.
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Old April 24, 2005, 09:08 PM   #47
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Thanks for the complement.

Back home (central Colorado) used to carry a .357 also. Mainly for signalling (I know it's a dead tradition, but was taught the 3 shots/lost person thing), and for pot meat or etc. Used the report a time or two to convince bears to remove themselves from the porch, or quit various idiot endeavors. Lions, very rarely saw them, usually the Spitz knew they were there, and the presence was later shown by tracks.
Here, a few lions wondering about, some canines which look entirely too close to a wolf, but little in the way of moose. Those usually don't get too far into this part of Montana. Remote place, but many of the potential predator animals here have been shot at so much, that they aren't much of a concern. Plus, although it vexes the ranchers, some here are interested to watch the wolves, lions and such moving back...along with the Buffalo. Symbolic culturally...

In the wilds here, the biggest real concern is the occasional bummer or crankheaded idiot...so in those terms a Makarov, the Kel Tec, or a good dose of sense is all that's needed.
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Old April 25, 2005, 01:01 AM   #48
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For those who say fire a warning shot into the air... where do you think the bullet will end up? What goes up must come down. When a bullet comes down, it may end up killing someone. If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree if there is one nearby.
Not trying to get too horribly off topic, but has there ever been a confirmed report of this happening?
As I understand physics, after the bullet reached the peak of its ascent and began to fall it would have lost all of the kinetic energy given to it by the powder in the cartridge and only be falling as fast as gravity will pull it back to earth. Its just like the whole penny from the empire state building, it might give someone a bit of a bruise on their head, but I doubt it would break skin...

As for the horse, just like in most any other situation, I think gunplay should be reserved for a last resort.
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Old April 25, 2005, 01:54 AM   #49
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If a warning shot must be fired, shoot it into the ground or into a tree
Now you are going to get Earth First on our cases! They'd rather you shot a bystander than a tree.
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Old April 25, 2005, 10:35 AM   #50
stephen426
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Originally Posted by Militant Bob
Not trying to get too horribly off topic, but has there ever been a confirmed report of this happening?
As I understand physics, after the bullet reached the peak of its ascent and began to fall it would have lost all of the kinetic energy given to it by the powder in the cartridge and only be falling as fast as gravity will pull it back to earth. Its just like the whole penny from the empire state building, it might give someone a bit of a bruise on their head, but I doubt it would break skin...
Bob, you are right in saying that a bullet has lost all of its kinetic energy when it hits the peak of its ascent. You will have to calculate how high that is given the caliber of gun. For the energy coming down, calculate the bullet dropped from that height. Terminal velocity is the maximum speed an object will reach when acted upon based on gravity and against air friction. A bullet has a pretty small profile while being very dense, giving it a very high terminal velocity.

To make a long story short, yes, people have been killed by falling bullets. It happens almost every New Year's Eve in Miami when some idiot goes popping off a bunch of rounds into the air in a densely packed residential neighborhood. Look it up if you want but know that it happens in real life.
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