The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 28, 2005, 04:54 PM   #1
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Defense load Buckshot, Slugs or lighter shot?

I own a rather weird but sweet 30year old russian double-barrel (28") shotgun, see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=162059
I use it for moving-target training as a supplement to my pistol training. And for fun. Just started, but I enjoy clay pigeons.

So, I want to keep this double-barrel ready with a defense load. The scenario could be a wild dog outside or bad guys trying to break into my place. I have two triggers for two barrels and chan choose what to shoot first and what to shoot second. So I thought, maybe a slug (which one) in the long-distance first barrel and maybe 00 buckshot (9 balls 8,7 mm) in the second barrel?

What do you recommend? Lighter shot maybe due to penetration risks?
Thank you for your time and thought.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old March 28, 2005, 04:57 PM   #2
jonathon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Washougal, Washington. YEHAW!
Posts: 1,872
We keep ours loaded with #4 buckshot. Slugs might be a bit much, considering that dogs and humans aren't very tough, and a load of lead would drop just about any two legged beast... just remember with any shot, you have to aim
__________________
Romans 12:21

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good


More CZ M52 info than you can shake a stick at!
jonathon is offline  
Old March 28, 2005, 05:27 PM   #3
WillBrayjr
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 1,881
Remington has managed loads in both slugs and buckshot that should be right up your alley.
WillBrayjr is offline  
Old March 28, 2005, 06:16 PM   #4
kudu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 273
I don't know how available our domestic ammo is for you in Europe, but #4 buck or even BB size lead loads would drop a dog or intruder inside of 20 yards(about 15 meters). I use #2 birdshot and BB's for coyote hunting here, 25-40pound animal, depending how well fed they are. These loads will drop them out to 50+ yards depending on the pattern of the barrel. A close in target gets the majority of shot in 2-3", that's probably within 30feet(7-8 meters). Slugs will travel and be lethal beyond a kilometer if they don't hit something big enough to stop them first.
__________________
"a shootin' we will go"
kudu is offline  
Old March 31, 2005, 05:49 PM   #5
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Slug or Buckshot: what is better for a stopping effect (COM placement)

Mhm, I am still struggling, here are the facts:

00 Buckshot Technical Data (Rottweil Express Cal. 12/23/4“)
• muzzle velocity: 390 m/s
• mean chamber pressure: max. 740 bar
• energy (muzzle): 2527 Joule


Slug Technical Data (Rottweil Brenneke Cal. 12/23/4“Mag.)
• muzzle velocity: 440 m/s
• mean chamber pressure: max. 1050 bar
• energy (muzzle): 3048 Joule

Slug seems stronger. But what is better for a stopping effect (COM placement): one big hit or nine smaller ones?
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old March 31, 2005, 06:15 PM   #6
Person of Interest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2005
Posts: 365
At 25 feet or less (sorry, about 3 meters?) it really doesn't matter what shot size one uses in the 12 gauge. For in-home use I would advise #6 birdshot. Across a room it will tear a man in half but won't go sailing through walls, too badly. Outside, where distances may open up to say, 25 yards (um... 20 meters?) buckshot of #00 to #4 persaution works fine. Longer than this and you need a rifle. I would pass on slugs unless limited to the shotgun. If I am firing a single projectile the shotgun isn't my first choice.
Person of Interest is offline  
Old March 31, 2005, 07:41 PM   #7
AKhunter
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Posts: 50
will your gun chamber either of those?

Your shotgun is a 2 3/4" chamber gun. Are those 70mm shells? Usually, over here, magnum is used to refer to 76mm shells.

AK
AKhunter is offline  
Old March 31, 2005, 10:29 PM   #8
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
I have to agree that inside the home, #6 or #4 birdshot will be devastating against someone at 5-10 meters (7-10 yards) and it reduces the penetration though walls - yours or the neighbors!

Outside the home #4 buckshot seems to do a marvelous job on "critters" that walk instead of fly. Keeping your shotgun loaded with one barrel of #6 (or #4) and the other with #4 buckshot will probably mean you've covered 98% of cases.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old March 31, 2005, 11:22 PM   #9
22-rimfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 4,594
I agree with the No. 4 and No. 6 shot. One additional note for consideration are the Aguila "Mini shells". I know you have a double; but with a pump type shotgun, you can increase the number of rounds in in the magazine by a factor of at least 2x. Pretty cool. I believe they are sold with No. 4 shot and slugs.
22-rimfire is offline  
Old April 1, 2005, 11:25 AM   #10
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
thanks

thanks everybody. I'll stick with #4 and #6 then...
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old April 1, 2005, 11:14 PM   #11
Brobee
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2004
Posts: 9
#4 or #1 buck would be my choice...

I did some shotgun load ballistic gelatin testing that might help with your own evaluation as to what might work best in your situation. The gelatin tests are about 2/3 the way down the page.

Good luck...

Brobee
www.tacticalworks.ca
Brobee is offline  
Old April 1, 2005, 11:21 PM   #12
2002gti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2004
Location: FIND ME
Posts: 1,125
im stocked with #4 buck in my hd but im really thinking that any load would do great.
__________________
HEE with the most toys dies happiest
2002gti is offline  
Old April 1, 2005, 11:27 PM   #13
redhawk41
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2005
Location: Red Desert
Posts: 752
i have my 870 loaded with 2-#6 and 2-#4.

after patterning the #6 at home defense ranges i feel confident that it would cause a world of hurt. it all goes into one hole made by the shotcup.

also means you have to aim
__________________
{thought cloud}
redhawk41 is offline  
Old April 2, 2005, 01:02 AM   #14
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
AK hunter

Quote:
will your gun chamber either of those?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Your shotgun is a 2 3/4" chamber gun. Are those 70mm shells? Usually, over here, magnum is used to refer to 76mm shells.
yep. It's a 12/70(mm) i.e. 2 3/4". It will feed the ones I listed above. I think the manufacturer calls the 70mms Magnum because it doesn't produce any Buckshot in 70mm, only 67mm. The might think that's enough powder for only 9 pellets...
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 03:03 AM   #15
GunnyBob
Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 26
Kudos for the good work, brobee; your results mirror what Dr. Fackler had to say concerning the effects of #1 buck:

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.
GunnyBob is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 03:09 AM   #16
Death from Afar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2004
Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,610
I agree with #4 Buck. Slugs are too inaccurate, and penetrate too much. You loose all the advnatages of a shotty with slugs.
__________________
"Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".
Death from Afar is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 12:51 PM   #17
Third_Rail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 134
I don't know about losing all of the advantages.... 29 grams of lead moving at 1400 FPS seems like a pretty good deal to me!
Third_Rail is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 02:53 PM   #18
Death from Afar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2004
Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,610
Oh yes, a slug can solve a lot of lifes little problems- but you want a shotgun to make it easier to hit a fleeting target. If you want a single projectile, why not use a rifle?
__________________
"Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".
Death from Afar is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 03:27 PM   #19
Rojoe67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 767
Turkey smacker in #4 or #5

If I would use or plan on a double/coach gun mine would have (2) same loads of Turkey shot......... #4 or #5 close defensive shot will work just fine for my needs..... Again if it's defending my life it's likely -10 yards. That would be 30' This is my view point only. I expect half will agree with me and half will say no way Rojoe.......

You do your thing........and I'll do mine
Rojoe67 is offline  
Old April 12, 2005, 05:30 PM   #20
vitesse9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2004
Posts: 340
I'm still a believer in a light sporting load with #7 1/2 shot

Many will probably argue against this load because it does not penetrate very well (as evidenced by the ballistic gelatin pics). But, my first priority is to avoid shooting through walls and harming unintended targets. I am confident that at very close range, which is the only scenerio where I would feel that shooting an intruder is warranted, this stuff will still stop an attack, albeit not as effectively as buckshot or slugs. It's a tradeoff I guess.
vitesse9 is offline  
Old April 13, 2005, 02:11 PM   #21
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
GunnyBob

thanks for the detailed information!
stay safe
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11488 seconds with 9 queries