The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 18, 1999, 01:19 AM   #1
mhannah1
Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 1999
Posts: 66
I saw the "Tales of the Gun" episode on the History Channel, featuring Victor Kalishnikov
and his weapons, and if what I saw is true, the AK-47 is one of the most reliable full auto guns made. According to the TV show, they made millions of them.
SO WHY CANT I FIND HARDLY ANY OF THEM FOR SALE?

I found one, and they wanted $6,995.00 for it.
That seems very high priced, considering how many were made.
mhannah1 is offline  
Old October 18, 1999, 08:41 AM   #2
fal308
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 12, 1998
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,986
The law of supply and demand. In the USA, no more full autos may be imported (with exceptions for LE on letterhead and gov't agencies) so that means there is a specific number that can be transferred. As these wear out they cannot be replaced. So people are holding on to their full autos and I believe that they aren't shooting them quite as much anymore. When they do sell a full auto, they command a premium price.
fal308 is offline  
Old October 18, 1999, 08:44 AM   #3
fal308
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 12, 1998
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,986
The full auto ban began in 1986, and the AK series was not well known in this country until the 1970s during and after Vietnam.
fal308 is offline  
Old October 18, 1999, 05:29 PM   #4
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,852
In addition to supply and demand (little supply, much demand) there is a $200 transfer tax for every sale between private parties, between a private party and a dealer and between a dealer and a private party. This adds up after a few sales.

Actually, there are not a lot of full auto AK47s in the country, and almost all of them were converted legally here prior to 1986. Trade regulations with China and Russia plus a general ban on importing ex-military arms and full auto arms for private sale prevented importation of the selective fire AKs. Of course, there are thousands of semi-auto AKs, but that is not the subject here.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 19, 1999, 12:07 PM   #5
pete80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 4, 1999
Posts: 454
There is also the black market surplus, now how many do you think are in country?
pete80 is offline  
Old October 19, 1999, 05:10 PM   #6
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,852
Well, Pete, I assume that anyone posting on a public web site is not looking for an illegal weapon. Anyone who is will probably find other channels for information.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 19, 1999, 08:15 PM   #7
Prichard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Posts: 263
n

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited February 07, 2000).]
Prichard is offline  
Old October 19, 1999, 08:17 PM   #8
mhannah1
Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 1999
Posts: 66
I believe fal308 and others posting answers had the right idea.
And yes, I am considering buying one in full compliance with fedaral law.

And yes, if I wanted to get one black market,
I probably could. (but I would never consider it even an option)

So, if I cant find a full auto AK, then what other reliable full autos should I consider, and what might I have to pay ?
mhannah1 is offline  
Old October 20, 1999, 03:56 AM   #9
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,547
Uzi makes a good FA gun.
If your wanting a rifle caliber - I have seen FA L1A1s in a few places.

That 200 dollar tax really does add up after awhile. More than doubling the actual price of the gun - because when you sell it - your going to add that 200 dollars to cover the 2 you dropped on it - plus a little extra for your own profit.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
George Hill is offline  
Old October 20, 1999, 08:16 AM   #10
fal308
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 12, 1998
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,986
This is really a $ vs $ situation. MAC 11s can still be picked up for under a grand. Reisings run around a grand also. The MAC is strictly a "room broom". High rate of fire and not overly accurate (stock weapon). There are several aftermarket kits that slow down the rof, add a forestock and buttstock, etc. Overall make them more controllable. These kits are basically full-auto racegun kits. The weapons are used in full-auto competition, much as in IPSC. Or you could go and get something such as a Port Said (S&W 76, 760), Uzi conversion etc. You'll be paying more but you'll get something a little more reliable. Either way you will end up paying out well over a grand.
From here you basically jump up another $1000 or more. But you are still mostly in pistol caliber (subgun) weaponry.
Full-auto assault rifles (true assault) and battle rifles generally start around $3500 and go up.
Remember the price is always rising on these weapons and its a sellers market. If you see something you want, you better pick it up now and next month the price may have gone up more.
Too bad Post May weapons are hard to acquire as these are the least expensive class three to buy. Again the law of supply and demand (with NFA and '86 machinegun ban)
A few examples would be MP5 pre runs around $9K vs post around $1400. M16 pre $3600 vs post $750.
Also at the Creek I saw the following for post weapons (Here are just a few of the cool "toys" I would have bought if money and legality wasn't an issue). FAL - $500, Skorpion - $1495, Berettas - $1000, HK33 - $1100.



[This message has been edited by fal308 (edited October 20, 1999).]
fal308 is offline  
Old October 20, 1999, 08:57 PM   #11
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 17,006
Not that it does anybody here in the US any good, but I've heard that on the blackmarket in South Africa (and other African nations), you can get an AK47 for less than $50.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

4V50 Gary is offline  
Old October 20, 1999, 10:38 PM   #12
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,852
The Soviets dumped hundreds of thousands of AKs into Africa to help Communist revolutionaries. I guess it is too late to get some parachuted in here if we promise to go Communist.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 21, 1999, 01:13 AM   #13
MSGBN
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 1999
Posts: 8
4V50,
You're right about that. My last duty station before I got out of the Marine Corps was at the American Embassy Conakry, Guinea (west Africa). Anyway at the local marche' a couple friends of mine (not Marines) got (2) Ak47's w/ (6) magazines for 50 Guinea frances. That's equivalent to about $45 US. I'm not sure what the actual nomenclature for them was but they were Chinese copies of the AK47 and were at about 50% condition but still fuctional. They didn't get them to bring back to the US but rather for insurance (since there's no police force in Guinea you're on your own)

[This message has been edited by MSGBN (edited October 21, 1999).]
MSGBN is offline  
Old October 21, 1999, 03:18 AM   #14
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,547
I would love to have a short barreled AK, with a folding stock...

*sigh*

But that would be too evil...

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
George Hill is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 12:06 AM   #15
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 17,006
I'd declare myself communist too if Fidel would deliver a couple tons of AK, RPKs, Dragunovs, RPG-7s, Mig 21s and 17s (for show of course), anything belt fed, anything based on the Gatling gun, T34/85s, T55s, BTR60s, BMPs, and ammunition to me.

Just spoke with a lady who visited Cuba last week. While she messed up in not smuggling cubanos (cigars) into this country, she visited some museums and reported there's a great Army museum with lotsa guns. Apparently, the Cubans are big on guns (but probably like the Japanese, can't own one). Visit now before it's liberated and prices increase! Visit now while the commies and the secret police are there to ensure your safety! Spend your American Dollars on Cuban Cigars and bring them back for your fellow Americans!
Looney tune mode off.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

4V50 Gary is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 03:17 AM   #16
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,547
I dont get the whole Cuba thing -Its gone on long enough... We dont (still) embargo Vietnam - and they got like 50,000 US troopers dead... Cuba only threatend us. Cuba was like - almost a state back in the 50's. It was THE place to go.
I mean - COME ON! We have a HUGE military BASE there!

Sigh... And just what is wrong with being communist anyways? Kidding...
Cigars? You could make a lot of money with those couldn't you? Pay for the trip? Turn out to be a very affordable vacation.
I wonder if you can rent an AK at a shooting range there...



------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
George Hill is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 09:55 AM   #17
Dr.Rob
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: July 28, 1999
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,454
I read once that the going rate of a full auto AK in Liberia was one goat or two lambs.

Now you can send a goat to Liberia rthrough the Hiefer Project International for about $120.... (really strange catalog my girlfriend received to send livestock to the third world).. so maybe we can trade livestock for these "weapons of war" and bring peace and prosperity to the third world?? (said with tounge firmly in cheek)

But seriously, in the arms markets of the third world, like in ghana, somalia, pakistan, etc. an AK is one of the cheapest most effective weapons available for around $100 american dollars. The arms markets of pakistan, somalia, liberia, gahna, etc. do heavy trade in all kinds of lend/lease weapons provided by us and the soviets. In places where there are no police, or other such protection afforded a traveler, buying local weapons may make sense. Journalists however are told time and time again to NEVER carry weapons. (hard to convince a shining path guerilla you aren't a combatant when you are packing a machine pistol.)

I'm a fan of kalishnikov's rifle.. but when you factor in the transfer tax to make a lawful purchase there are a lot of nifty FA toys out there which might make more sense to buy.

Stay safe, stay legal,

Dr.Rob

Dr.Rob is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 11:05 AM   #18
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 17,006
Concerning the rental of guns, if anyone ever visits Beijing (that wonderful capital of the Far Eastern Workers' Paradise), Norinco has a range with firearms rental. You can rent an AK47, SKS, smgs (including the Norinco version of the Uzi), their unauthorized copy of the M16, belt fed machineguns, bolt action rifles, shotguns and various types of handguns. It's not cheap, but it may be one of the few times you get to shoot something exotic.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

4V50 Gary is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 02:13 PM   #19
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,852
George,

There is a possibility that the continued embargo on Cuba may have something to do with the possible involvement of a certain bearded gentleman in the events in Dallas in November, 1963. When the gentleman in question is no longer with us, I think things will change rapidly.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 22, 1999, 08:33 PM   #20
STIHL
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1999
Location: SOUTHEAST , MA
Posts: 2
On the rental part of it, I hear there is a place on international drive in Orlando that alows you to rent and shoot a FA.They also have hand guns.If im not mistaking I thought I seen it in a brochur the last time I was down there.Does anyone know of this?
STIHL is offline  
Old October 23, 1999, 02:17 AM   #21
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,547
Well - that certain gentileman may had something to do with Dalls.. But didn't we take care of Chi in return? Another "mystery".

Yeah - I think it will change very rapidly as well.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

George Hill is offline  
Old October 29, 1999, 12:38 PM   #22
Walker
Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 1999
Posts: 26
I found this if anybody is still interested.

NORINCO .762X39 REG. RECEIVER UNDER FOLDER $5600

www.urban-armory.com/class3.htm

This guy is a class 3 in Jamestown, NY.
Walker is offline  
Old October 30, 1999, 10:18 PM   #23
mhannah1
Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 1999
Posts: 66
I might be the luckiest guy around !
I found a full auto AK-47 at a class 3 dealer who has a shop only 1/2 mile from my home!!
Best of all he says its 98% for $6,500.00
(havent seen it yet since it belongs to a private party)
Plus this class 3 dealer happens to be a friend of my neighbor across the street,(who I am good friends with)and he seems to be a nice guy !!! plus he has the best prices Ive seen anywhere in town for 7.62x39 ammo ($2.75)a box of 20 rounds.
Wish me luck, Im going to see it in person next week.
mhannah1 is offline  
Old November 17, 1999, 01:56 AM   #24
Jolly White Giant
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 1999
Location: Mn, USA
Posts: 6
There is a range in Mineapolis,MN that rents Class 3 weapons. They aren't cheap but where else are you going to be able to fire off an M-60, MP-5's, Thompsons, ect. unless you go into the Military?

Jolly White Giant is offline  
Old December 16, 1999, 02:57 AM   #25
Covert Mission
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 1999
Location: West of the Pecos
Posts: 671
jim Keenan: re
I guess it is too late to get some parachuted in here if we promise to go Communist.


You maybe could give a big donation to Al Bore and Billary's election war chests, and get an import waiver for some FA's. Almost worked for Charlie Trie's Chinese friends!

BTW, I recently shot an IDPA match hosted by an unnamed SoCal Sheriff's Dept rangemaster, at their range. After the match, he very kindly broke out a couple MP5's, and let anyone who wanted to shoot them. Just had to pay for your ammo. What fun! Oh Santaaaaaaaa...

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited December 16, 1999).]
Covert Mission is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12600 seconds with 9 queries