The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 18, 2005, 06:01 PM   #76
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,114
Quote:
But stop me if I am wrong....we were discussing handguns
I thought were were talking about calibers...and someone before me brought up rifles.
Quote:
From John Farnam...for those inclined to argue calibers
Quote:
So, assuming you use at least minimally effective ammunition...arguing about the caliber is silly.
What's the minimum effective ammunition that American police and military choose to use in their .380 duty guns?
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old February 18, 2005, 06:58 PM   #77
caegal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Posts: 114
Quote:
Do you know of any departments that carry a .380 for a duty gun? A .25 acp? .32? .22 LR? Why not? They don't carry THAT many different calibers.
But we are not talking about those calibers, we are talking about 9mm vs. .45cal.
caegal is offline  
Old February 18, 2005, 08:59 PM   #78
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,951
Frank,

You posted: "How many people who are in the business of killing ... would prefer the ... .30 carbine over the .30-06?"

I gave you an example of a person who was given a rather impressive citation for being (among other things) very good at killing people and who preferred the .30 Carbine over the .30-06.

Mr. Murphy was certainly experienced enough to know the difference between shooting a person with the .30-06 and the .30 Carbine. And yet, in many situations he chose to use the .30 Carbine.

Your post implied that an experienced killer would never consider using the .30 Carbine round when the .30-06 was available, but that is obviously not true as evidenced by Mr. Murphy's use of the .30 Carbine.

You said: "The argument was about bullets and stopping power, not about what was a better gun for different situations."

If I read your objection right, you are saying that the .30 Carbine was superior enough in other ways that it made up for what you seem to feel is a severe "lack of caliber superiority." If that is what you intend to say, then you have made my point for me quite adroitly. Every firearm and caliber has many characteristics. To narrowly focus on one or two parameters (e.g. bullet diameter) is to be blind to the true situation.
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 19, 2005, 12:11 AM   #79
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
Yes Frank...there was one previous post that actually mentioned a bad hit from a rifle no being enough to "stop" a determined BG.

After a whole lot of sometimes animated discussion of handguns
(Some real interesting what ifs to try to shore up a pountless argument)

At which point you decided to continue to beat the dead horse with a rifle.

You obviously like to argue... I am not inclined to watch...that would be really silly!

Have fun people!
OBIWAN is offline  
Old February 19, 2005, 06:01 AM   #80
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
You just picked apart the situation which i didn't sit here for half an hour and plan out
DanV1317, I didn't plan for a half an hour either. It's common sense. The scenario you stated just simply doesn't have any relevance to the topic of this thread. Are you completely ignoring your own post. In your post you listed the "other problems". All I was saying that if all of those things happened, it doesn't matter what gun you have, because you are already in bad shape. There are alot of aspects involved in surviving and most importantly avoiding gun fights. I wonder what the odds are of 1mm extra expansion hitting a vital organ. Even if the extra 1mm were to hit it wouldn't do much because you need a solid hit. I know commonly the expansion of a .45 is usually 1-2mm more than 9mm but you have to figure from the center of the bullet to the edge that is actually hitting the organ. It would range from half a mm to 1mm to possibly none. The bottom line is it doesn't matter what caliber you are using. If you don't hit your target you are not going to survive the gun fight.
cje1980 is offline  
Old February 20, 2005, 09:48 PM   #81
Troponin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Pencil vain ea
Posts: 380
As someone who has personally seen several gun shot wounds in the field, I can tell you what I have learned.

1. Most people are a bad shot. 99% of kills are purely coincidental. I had a guy who was about 250lbs. was shot by someone running away from him. He too was "joking" with us, but not in the manner you think. His last words to me were "am I gonna die?". I thought to myself, nah, this guy is doing pretty good. 2 mins later he was unconcious and his chest was being cracked open to do cardiac massage. His L ventricle had been hit and was bleeding the whole time. The trauma was then called once we found that.

2. I have yet to see someone who was shot continue to persue the shooter, no matter what caliber was being used. Tough guys suddenly turn into whiney bitches when they are shot, and for good reason, it hurts like hell to be shot with any gun.

Now, what do we know about bullets traveling through the body? Forget about the .22 bullet bouncing around in the body. It rarely heppens. Most of the time the bullets enters and then comes ot rest immediately because it doesn't have enough energy to continue. If you're lucky, you will hit someone's spine or their stomach, which will cause bacterial problems, with a .22, but hell, that is quite a small target for either.

The larger the round and the more energy a round has, the more trauma it will cause. It could miss all vital organs simply in it's path, but the shock wave sent could tare the hell out of anything around it.

Two sides of it...this could go on forever and probably always will.
Troponin is offline  
Old February 21, 2005, 02:42 PM   #82
Unique 5.7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Location: The Heartland
Posts: 220
Troponin - Are you sure about that with the .22LR? I thought they typically entered the body, tumbled a little bit (but don't bounce around in the body as some think) to form a wound cavity a little larger than would be expected from a .22, and then come to a rest "backwards" with the base in front.
__________________
"Never underestimate the power of a guilty conscience." - Det. Alexandra Eames, "Law & Order: Criminal Intent"
Unique 5.7 is offline  
Old February 21, 2005, 02:54 PM   #83
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
I have heard stories of .22lr fired into the skul...bouncing around tha cranial cavity wreaking havoc on the structure of the brain

But I have no idea if any of it is true

Sound cool though
OBIWAN is offline  
Old February 21, 2005, 03:48 PM   #84
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,114
Friend of mine was shot in the front of the chest with a .22 LR through a heavy leather jacket. Round made a 90 degree left turn came out the side of his chest, went through the leather again, then through the leather of the sleeve and into his arm.
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old February 21, 2005, 05:16 PM   #85
Troponin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Pencil vain ea
Posts: 380
It's very possible that the bullet made an immediate turn and came back out. I am betting that it didn't make it too much further than an inch or two deep though before making its' turn though. How far were the entrance and exit. They coule have been only a couple inches.

Unique, Perhaps they do tumble. I can see it doing that. Point is, it usually gets lodged into a bone or doesn't make it far. IMO, having someone go into surgery to have a bullet romoved from the torso is probably more high risk. Things can go south very quickly in the OR when you think everything is stable.
Troponin is offline  
Old February 21, 2005, 05:25 PM   #86
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,114
Quote:
How far were the entrance and exit. They coule have been only a couple inches.
Not sure how deep it was, but the entrance was a good 10-12 inches from the exit. I remember they made a small cut in his abdomen to check things out. Don't know if they used a scope or what, but they didn't do any cutting in his chest. They may have left the bullet in his arm. Can't remember. There was nothing vital hit. Wonder what would have happened if he'd been hit with a .45 Colt or ACP round....
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old February 22, 2005, 11:03 AM   #87
Unique 5.7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Location: The Heartland
Posts: 220
Frank, I would expect most experts to pick the .223 round over the .308 or .30-06 round for military use, mainly because they have done so. Remember, the Russians have also moved away from the .30 caliber battle round with their 5.45mm round. Wound cavities are often not very impressive from the high powered .30 cal rounds, they are practically through the body when the wound cavity starts to form. Also, high firepower is much more deadly than slower, aimed fire in military battles. The .223 round lends itself to high firepower better with much less felt recoil and the soldier in the field can carry more than twice as many rounds for the same weight.
__________________
"Never underestimate the power of a guilty conscience." - Det. Alexandra Eames, "Law & Order: Criminal Intent"
Unique 5.7 is offline  
Old February 23, 2005, 05:24 PM   #88
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Ford or GM?

just the same smart question as .45 or 9X19mm.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old February 23, 2005, 06:30 PM   #89
reildeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 115
I for one own and shoot a .45. I have shot 9mm, and shot them both pretty well. I CHOOSE the .45 because I shoot better with it, and I assure you I can empty all 8 rnds COM at 7 yds. very quickly. I have never timed myself, but I am willing to bet that I can do so in the time It would take me to empty 8 from a 9mm. I know there is an advantage to being able to carry 10 rds in your 9mm mag, but many people feel comfortable having 5 or 6 rounds in a revolver, and I feel VERY comfortable having 8 in my S&W .45. 9mm is no better than a .45 in my situation. 8 rounds from a .45 is still gonna jack you up!
reildeal is offline  
Old February 23, 2005, 07:16 PM   #90
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
How about 17 Rds. right down the pipe with a 9mm? That's all I shoot, and I don't worry about it.
Bullrock is offline  
Old February 23, 2005, 07:27 PM   #91
reildeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 115
To be honest, I wouldn't feel any safer with17 rnds in my clip, but if you do, then you gotta use what works for you. The way I see it is that if 8 rnds hasn't done it, the guy is either retreating or on me by that point anyways(in which a physical altercation would then be the case, and I sure as hell am not going to let the guy have a chance of getting my piece with another 9 rnds to put in me), and if he isn't, I've surely explored the idea of a defensive position in which clip #2 goes in. Although I cannot plan precisely what any given situation would pan out to be, I can take comfort in knowing that I have what I need in both my firearm and my ability to defend myself should the firearm not be an issue. But that being said, I think of the firearm as the icing on the cake. Not something I plan to ever have to use.
reildeal is offline  
Old March 1, 2005, 11:21 PM   #92
weldonjr2001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2001
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 452
How do you know she didn't STOP when shot? If you're "laughing" because she lived, then you should have titled it "Killing Power Bwwaa..............."
weldonjr2001 is offline  
Old March 2, 2005, 07:53 AM   #93
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
Sigh*******
OBIWAN is offline  
Old March 9, 2005, 06:35 PM   #94
perception
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 9, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 421
the best advice i ever heard on the matter came from a woman in my TN carry class. she had just moved from florida, and said that her instructor there had told her that in a situation where you have to shoot someone, you keep shooting until they go down. if it takes 25 rounds to put them on the ground, then thats what you use.
perception is offline  
Old March 11, 2005, 10:44 AM   #95
smokinron
Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2004
Location: High plains
Posts: 61
Remember Murphy's rules of engagement,
"When in doubt, empty the magazine".......
smokinron is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11088 seconds with 10 queries