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Old December 6, 2004, 01:37 PM   #26
CAGoatee
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"Bump Fire Bozos"

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The disinformation cowpath is full of bump fire bozo's and gunshop professors (which is why i seldom post...) who can wail and cast their limpid eyes skyward while fantasizing about airsoft babes and computer games.
Rich,

My last post which you found difficult to "categorize", (can't fault you for that), was in reaction to something that Pat Roger's stated earlier (excerpt quoted above). I understand what he is saying, and I also do not enjoy listening to the postulations of the arogantly ignorant either (hence my nomenclature "armchair warriors"); especially when it comes to defensive/offensive tactics, as their "advice", if wrong, could get either themselves - or some other innocent - seriously injured or killed. So, when Pat made his statement about seldom posting, I thought that was sort of strange, when he is affiliated with "S.W.A.T. Magazine", (SM) whose readership base probably includes many of these "bump fire bozos".

Also, if the magazine was called "American Self-Defense", for example, then that would be more reflective of its actual contents, because it really does not contain, or at least should NOT contain, actual tactics used by law enforcement personnel (as any dirt-bag could either buy a copy at the newsstand; or subscribe, and then be able to kill a cop, or other innocents, using that information). So, if in fact the publishers of SM are not selling actual LE tactics, and they should NOT, then why call it, "S.W.A.T. Magazine"?
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Last edited by CAGoatee; December 6, 2004 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old December 6, 2004, 02:17 PM   #27
Rich Lucibella
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Cag-
It's called SWAT because that was what Chuck Taylor named it in the early 80's. Just as Soldier of Fortune hardly caters to the Murder-for-Hire group, a magazine called "Special Weapons and Tactics" need not concern itself exclusively with SRT units in the new millennium. It is what we choose it to be; it's named what we choose to name it; it survives or fails on what the public thinks of it.

You are correct that most of SWAT's readers do not carry a badge....including the 30% that wear a military uniform. But I'm still missing your point. Are you suggesting that the ratio of "bump fire bozos" is somehow greater in non-police circles than among those with a badge? If so, I'd really like to know what process of Natural Selection automatically raises a man's intellect upon graduating from the academy and pinning a patch of base metal to his chest?

As to "LE Tactics", there are very few that I consider sacrosanct, especially when so many come originally from the (apparent) dregs of "civilian" marksmanship and training. Husbands and wives should be exposed to Team Tactics. Responsible shooters should know how to clear a corner, reload from cover, shoot from the confines of a drivers seat and disarm an opponent.

I'm not at all worried about the criminal element learning about the "One Secret Police Tactic That Is Certain To Work Under All Circumstances". I'm far more concerned about those on our side of the barricade (in and out of uniform) who believe such tactics exist....or that they can ever take the place of professional training and practice.

Were I to be as concerned as you about feeding valuable info to the bad guys, I'd shut this site down today. There's more practical value to be gleaned from a careful read of these threads than can ever be imparted in a standard Police Academy.

Information isn't the enemy.....people who misuse it are. Lucky for us, most criminals (by nature) are inherently lazy. They simply don't train.
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Old December 6, 2004, 04:15 PM   #28
CAGoatee
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Sacroscant Information

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As to "LE Tactics", there are very few that I consider sacrosanct, especially when so many come originally from the (apparent) dregs of "civilian" marksmanship and training. Husbands and wives should be exposed to Team Tactics. Responsible shooters should know how to clear a corner, reload from cover, shoot from the confines of a drivers seat and disarm an opponent.
Rich,

I appreciate VERY much your efforts both in print and with TFL, to get valid information out there to those people who neither have combat, nor LE training. Every grunt and cop in the world started out completely ignorant of those tactics until receiving training, and gaining experience. The information in the magazine and here online is invaluable for that.

What I was reacting to, and maybe in hindsight I should have just let it go, were Pat's remarks about "bump fire bozos"; and seldom posting online, when he is a contributer to SM, and these very "bump fire bozos" can - and probably do - read that publication (and therefore are reading all the info that he contributes).

I guess I also reacted, and maybe in hindsight it may not be worth it; or even a good idea, in voicing my opposition to your magazines title. I mean it is NOT a magazine published by, or for, SWAT teams. And in reality, I think that if you are honest with yourself, that you would admit (at least privately) that the use of the title "S.W.A.T. Magazine", is a marketing ploy to generate a wider readership base. In short, you are using the SWAT acronym as a marketing tool.

Like I said earlier, if you had called it, "American Home Defense", for example, that would not bug me at all. Just as it does not bother me that members of your magazine's staff, post information here to counteract all the postulations of the self-proclaimed "experts" (these "Gun Shop Professors" as Pat calls them), who hand out all this bad information that could get a person killed (who doesn't have the proper training and experience). And I applaud your every single effort in that regard!!!

As for the "base metal" that gets pinned on LE academy graduates chests, you are correct that, that piece of 'tin' isn't worth much as a commodity. However that's not what the 'badge' is about. It's a symbol of governmental authority that tells all, that the wearer is authorized; and mandated, to enforce the laws of the Federal, State, County and and/or City governments (and, if the agency is a excellent one, a symbol of pride to the officer wearing it). (Not very many people want to; nor are they qualified to, do that dangerous and often thankless task). And I'm sure you wouldn't scoff at that little trident emblem that Jeff G. used to wear (earned) either.

Lastly, I am very well aware that many firearms skills have been developed, or enhanced by non-sworn members of society (as I once was, and now that I am retired, have returned to that former category). I am very grateful for all the non military and non-LE personnel who developed some of the fine firearms that I used to defend my life with, and the lives of others. I am sorry that my postings, and criticisms, led you to infer that I was somehow denigrating those who were never LEO's. It was NOT my intent whatsoever, to slight any firearms owner/user who neither combat military personnel, nor cops. I am not one of those "jerk" macho cops (or former cops), who look down their noses at people who never had a badge pinned on their chests. As cop, I was willing to lay down my life to maintain order and peace in society. It was my duty, obligation, and job. Nothing more and nothing less.

The best to you and all contributers to your publication, the information is very much needed in these increasingly dangerous times we live in. It's just that I've never liked the title (and that's simply my opinion), and is in NO way a slight to the life-saving information contained within it.

Happy Holidays, and stay safe!
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Last edited by CAGoatee; December 7, 2004 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old December 6, 2004, 04:41 PM   #29
Rich Lucibella
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Cag-
No offense taken..or intended. When I spar, it's obvious and usually in-kind. When I "fight", it's never on the public side of this forum....and it's seldom fair.

As to the magazine title, you're ahead of yourself. I didn't create the title...I inherited it. Since it's absolute suicide to change a magazine title after a twenty year run, I think you're hard pressed to accuse me of using it as a "marketing ploy". SWAT was defunct and off the stands when I bought it. I thought it was worth trying to salvage...so did Denny....and Pat....and Jeff. I see no reason to change the title....other than the fact that it sometimes works against us when non-badged readers assume it's only for cops.

We use no "marketing ploys" whatsoever and I do bristle a bit when people make such claims out of ignorance. This is about the most value-oriented, no-BS title in its market....nobody gets rich off of it; some of us have NEVER received a check from it; and NONE of us will accept the term "Gun Rag", "Wannabe" or "Arm Chair Warrior" when it comes to our effort, our staff or our readers. Just as you bristle when someone calls the LASD badge a "piece of base metal", others are proud of their contribution to the fight.....and have every bit as much a right to be.

We on the same page now?
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Old December 6, 2004, 04:50 PM   #30
CAGoatee
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Which Page?

Same page.
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"To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill, but to defeat the enemy without fighting, that is the highest skill". (Asian Martial Arts Proverb)

"Those who ignore history, are doomed to repeat it." (Anon.)
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Old December 6, 2004, 10:47 PM   #31
Rich Lucibella
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That said, my apologies for coming out of the blocks as hard as I did.
We're cool. Thanks for your service and continued contribution here.
Rich
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Old December 6, 2004, 11:24 PM   #32
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Results of the girlie-girl one-hand-racking tests:

Striking surface: Flabby right thigh covered in Gap stone-washed denim jeans, slim fit.

Weapon #1: Springfield Stainless Loaded, bead-blasted finish, Novak sights, factory recoil spring.

Multiple attempts couldn't even get the slide to budge from battery. Ow, my leg!

Weapon #2: Old Clackamas Kimber Custom Classic, matte blue finish, CMC sights, original recoil spring.

Despite flinching from already-throbbing leg, managed to get the slide to cycle roughly two out of three tries, thanks to sights catching on outseam of jeans.

Weapon #3: Colt MkIV Series 80 in .38 Super, blued, no-gunsmithing Novaks, original-weight recoil spring.

Sissy recoil spring plus high-drag drop-in Novaks allows slide to cycle every time, since rear sight fouls on jeans seam.

Weapon #4: Springfield Professional, Black-T finish, Novaks, factory serious recoil spring.

You've got to be kidding me. Owww... OW!



Conclusions:
I need to work out more to beef up my right thigh. Huge, pistol-shaped goose eggs hurt. CMC sights and "drop in" Novaks are a lot grippier than Novak Lo-Mounts. Gap jeans are slicker than they look. Thank Vishnu I have a belt, a holster, and two boot heels to use as striking surfaces. Pat gave valuable advice, but this is obviously going to take a lot more work...
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Old December 7, 2004, 08:59 AM   #33
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Heine slant pros allow me to do said slide rack.
Also checkering does not bother my hands, must be due to machining for the last ten years. Yost is going to stipple the front strap and mainspring housing of the S.A. he is building me and hopefully it will have less wear n tear on my clothes. His rear sight looks like just the ticket to be able to catch on a belt loop etc.
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Old December 7, 2004, 10:51 PM   #34
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Hrm. I'm sporting a monster Charley Horse on my right thigh now, but I'm going to give this another whirl, this time using my hip on the weak side. Given that the fabric tends to bunch up more there, it may provide a higher coefficient of friction for me to work against, with a commensurately better chance of snagging the ejection port or sights strongly enough to rack the slide. More later...
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Old December 7, 2004, 11:41 PM   #35
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Have you tried using your teeth on the ejection port?
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Old December 7, 2004, 11:58 PM   #36
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Not really, since I'm being serious.

(Incidentally, not one of the four test weapons mentioned above has ever hiccuped on me even once, except for the Pro, which came with two mags [out of six] that had crapped-out springs. I figure that a weapon's first malf will generally come at the least opportune time, so [paranoiac that I am] I try and be at least a little bit prepared for that inevitable "why'd-it-have-to-happen-now?" screwup. )
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Old December 8, 2004, 12:11 AM   #37
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Really? You're seriously rejecting your own preference for high profile sights to satisfy someone elses demonstratably near-impossible slight of hand?

Enjoy your well earned bruises, dear lady.
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Old December 8, 2004, 12:25 AM   #38
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Actually, it's not so cut and dried.

Personally, I think it'd be swell if all these guns came with Trijicons, but they don't. What I'm looking for is an operable method to cycle them one-handed without having to mill the rear sights. (I'm selectively cheap. )

One thing that I've discovered from this whole process is that even the toughest gun to cycle one-handed (the Novak-sighted, teflon-coated, heavily-sprung and tightly locked Pro) is easily popped off against a rubber boot heel. Whoever brought up using a boot heel in this thread, thanks. I don't know why I never thought of that before.
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Old December 8, 2004, 04:43 PM   #39
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Hmmm. Maybe you cut a Novak shaped notch in your belt? Fitting the sight into the notch should give you enough purchase to rack the slide. Kinda specialized, I know, but it is cheaper than swapping out to Heinie's!
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Old December 9, 2004, 06:00 PM   #40
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Tam, lemme see if I understand you re the sights. Is this correct:

The ones that you're referring to which are all the rage right now have a vertical "back" and a sloped "front", which is the exact opposite of what you need on BOTH sides, since you'd want a sloped back to aid in a snag-free draw, and a vertical front to get a grip on the top of a belt for an emergency one-hand rack.

Is that it or are you saying something else? Because if that's what you're saying, then of course I agree, and what the heck is the rationale for having the angle wrong on BOTH sides of the sight?
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Old December 9, 2004, 11:25 PM   #41
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Ff,

That's what I be sayin'.
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Old December 12, 2004, 12:53 PM   #42
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Tamara, thanks for bring this point up. For the longest time, I have thought that the Novaks were highly over rated as a combat sight for the same reason you do. First Freedom's design critique is dead on the money.

From my personal experience, the stock mil-spec rear sight of the 1911a1, and the Yost-Bonitz beefier rear sight are ideal. The XS System sight has a more pronounced 'blade' on the rear, but I didn't like the shallow valley notch.

I note that most military pistols have very basic sights, like my BHP and CZ. Even the Grock comes standard with a wedge-type rear. None of these weapons have ever presented a problem when doing one-hand clearance drills. You can catch that sight on a belt, holster, bootheel, seam, pocket, wall, corner, tabletop, whatever.

There is a difference between Positive and Non-Positive. NP doesn't mean that it's a bad thing, just not preferable. Using the ejection port, front sight, or muzzle end to push the slide back - all are workable under certain circumstances, but they offer little in the way of surface area and it would be hard to hit that "sweet spot" when the adrenalin is pumping. They are "Non-Positive" in nature.

The milspec type of rear sight offers a very Positive hook to grab. The majority of them, like on my CZ and BHP, are very large, stand a good bit off of the slide's top, and are beefy enough to take repeated hits in training. Because it's hard to miss that big rear sight, little training is needed and your attire is less of a part of the equation.

When I first learned about the malf drill, I had the stock rear sight on my Colt 1991. The teacher showed me how to do the drill, snagging my sight on my pocket or somewhere on my duty rig. It was a little awkward at first, but I was able to get repeated hits after five minutes and felt confident that I could do this all day long in a fight.

Down the road a bit, I had the same Colt customized my Ted Yost (to include his stippling on the FS, BT speedbump, and MSH) and had him install the uber-cool, Det1 has it, rear sight. After that, I could not snag the rear sight for a clearance. Getting a hook on the ejection port was more of a miss than hit operation.

The same pistol - different rear sight. With the Novak sight, there simply isn't anything to RELIABLY grab hold on. The premise behind the Novak and Heinie sights is that it extends the sight radius. That's it. Yea, they're durable, but so is any other hunk of steel.

Long-winded, but I really wanted to get that off my chest. Thanks for all who listened. Off to the gym.
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Old December 20, 2004, 06:10 PM   #43
rkc
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You can also catch edge of the slide to rack the same.
illustrated many years ago by world's fastest man with a
1911, happened to be a Marine I believe

can use front strap from Wilson Combat , just a cover, to discover if you like checkering and compare the two before investing in real deal.
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Old December 22, 2004, 03:02 PM   #44
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Tamara:

ROFL i couldnt help laughing upon reading this... heh heres a few other ideas i came up with fiddling around with this idea myself it may or may not be less painful... but perhaps more effective...

option #1 grip the slide in the nook of your neck on the side... hmm hard to explain... tilt your head to the side in a manner to grip the weapon and cycle the slide that way... i tried this with my Taurus and it worked... a bit of abrasion on the neck... but its better than having an unloaded gun in a gun fight..

option #2 place the weapon in a similar manner but this time in the nook behind the knee bending the leg to grip the slide in a similar fashion and cycle it that way...

option #3 this one i just thought of on a whim... i tried it again with my taurus and got it to work... i hooked the rear sight on the corner of my rear pocket and got the slide to cycle again...

hehe keep trying.. and be creative theres alot of ways to cycle a slide if the "need to or im dead" situation presents itsself.

Striking surface: Flabby right thigh covered in Gap stone-washed denim jeans, slim fit.

Weapon #1: Springfield Stainless Loaded, bead-blasted finish, Novak sights, factory recoil spring.

Multiple attempts couldn't even get the slide to budge from battery. Ow, my leg!

Weapon #2: Old Clackamas Kimber Custom Classic, matte blue finish, CMC sights, original recoil spring.

Despite flinching from already-throbbing leg, managed to get the slide to cycle roughly two out of three tries, thanks to sights catching on outseam of jeans.

Weapon #3: Colt MkIV Series 80 in .38 Super, blued, no-gunsmithing Novaks, original-weight recoil spring.

Sissy recoil spring plus high-drag drop-in Novaks allows slide to cycle every time, since rear sight fouls on jeans seam.

Weapon #4: Springfield Professional, Black-T finish, Novaks, factory serious recoil spring.

You've got to be kidding me. Owww... OW!



Conclusions:
I need to work out more to beef up my right thigh. Huge, pistol-shaped goose eggs hurt. CMC sights and "drop in" Novaks are a lot grippier than Novak Lo-Mounts. Gap jeans are slicker than they look. Thank Vishnu I have a belt, a holster, and two boot heels to use as striking surfaces. Pat gave valuable advice, but this is obviously going to take a lot more work...
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Old January 5, 2005, 05:16 AM   #45
abelew
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Step on the slide, and do it that way, no snaging, just a danger of scratches to your gun, but if your in a gun fight.......scratches are probably a minor concern.
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Old January 6, 2005, 03:16 AM   #46
Samuel2001
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The hell with all that! I'm putting an ambidextrous charging handle on my 1911. That sucker will grab and snag on everything! And I'll keep my Novaks on top to keep it sorta snag free!
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