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Old December 11, 2004, 01:17 PM   #1
springrnco
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Purchasing Dealer Samples

I have read contradicting stories on if it is legal to have my corporation become a Class3 dealer and be therefore eligible to buy "Dealer Sample" firearms. I would not have the intention to resell any guns. I understand that the dealer license is between 600 and 1000 a yr. Any help would be appreciated.
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Old December 11, 2004, 02:53 PM   #2
PMDW
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You need a store front also. Using an FFL/SOT for personal collection purposes is illegal and will get your license taken away.
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Old December 11, 2004, 03:45 PM   #3
shaggy
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In addition to getting your license pulled, you can also be charged with felony tax evasion. Unless you plan to actively engage in a bonafide business, you're playing with fire.
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Old December 11, 2004, 06:36 PM   #4
springrnco
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Thanks for the info and help.
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Old December 14, 2004, 06:03 PM   #5
CQBArms
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The right answer

1. Your FFL runs anywhere from $150 to $200 for the first 3 years, depending on what FFL, it may drop or may stay the same.

2. You DO NOT need a retail location.

3. You have to be in the business of doing something with an income generated.

4. Post samples would require an FFL and a SOT and a demo letter from a PD.
So figure your FFL cost, your $500 a year SOT, and some leg work to get the dealer demo letter.

5. If you don't plan on selling guns, then really what is the point?
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Old December 14, 2004, 09:19 PM   #6
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There is some erroneous and/or vague information above regarding your query. Since my FFL is hanging on the wall 5 feet from me (and has been for 14 years), I may be qualified to help.
  1. Yes, you can use your existing business address as your premise of record as long as it meets the requirements defined by the BATF
  2. You must be in the business of generating income by selling firearms you acquire via your FFL
  3. You MUST have a retail store front (as defined by the BATF) that you operate at the premise designated on your FFL
  4. If the above are met, it is NOT illegal to use your FFL to acquire firearms for your own collection

The process for applying for an FFL has become VERY difficult and frustrating. Atlanta will take a minimum of 8-9 months to process it. They are completely incompetent; you'll have to complain nearly every day to keep the process moving. Unless you're intending to commit 70+ hours a week to the operation of a bonafide firearms dealership, I can't tell you strongly enough that having a FFL isn't worth the hassle.
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:31 AM   #7
shaggy
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I don't know where this "retail store" stuff comes from. There is no requirement to have a retail store; only that the licensed premises meets all applicable zoning regulations (Since an FFL necessarily means engaging in commerce, a commercial/retail operation cannot be prohibited by local zoning laws at the licensed premises). If you go for an 07/SOT, they are even more vigilant about checking.

As to the "doing business" requirement, there is no way around that one. And you must do business which requires the license. If you have an FFL & SOT and only transfer handguns, you run the risk of having the SOT pulled (ie. you are not doing business that requires the SOT). And if you get the SOT pulled, you'll have to quickly sell off or destroy any post-samples in your possession.
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Old December 15, 2004, 08:27 PM   #8
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Ohhh the irony

Since my 01/03 is at my store...I don't have to look at that one.

Since my 07/02 is at my mfg facility where we have NO RETAIL space or sales and is in fact limited by box 9 saying NO RETAIL Sales, that one I know real well.

Since my 10/02 is at our factory, and again specifically states NO RETAIL sales...you are full of $hit when you say you have to have a retail location.

Since I deal with Amchar and Camfour and they have NO RETAIL sales space, explain to me how they have such a huge business but "have to have retail space."

Continue to use your FFL to enhance your collection and watch what happens.
Look man if you want to make stuff up, that's your right just don't try and pass off that BS as the truth that's a whole different matter.
Want to enhance your colletion, get an 07CR, want to do buisness, you get the apply for the license, abide by zoning, and away you go.

As well there is NO license/SOTcombination that would ever allow you to get post sample machine guns for your personal collection, ever. That is TOTALLY ILLEGAL.
Dealer samples are for delalers to use as samples for law enforcement and military/gov't sales, not to keep and play with and screw around with...read what a dealer sample is then explain *** FFL/SOT combination confers the right of "enhancing your personal collection" with dealer samples.
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:50 PM   #9
Indy_SIG
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Springrnco - Probably best to contact the BATF office for your area and ask these questions directly to them. Too many would-be experts have given such contradictory information here for the thread to be of much use to you.
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Old December 16, 2004, 07:25 PM   #10
CQBArms
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You being the only off page.

Show me where a license / SOT combo can be used to personally collect post sample demo guns. I can tell you how I KNOW that post sample guns are never to "be collected" and what the process is for post sample demo guns.



Show me in the FFL regs where it says you have to have a retail location.
Show me where the BATFE defines "retail store front" in any of the regulations.
I can show you specifically where it says YOU DON'T (in at least two instances) and I know of more based on sales type and business type. The word retail doesn't even show up in the index.

Maybe you are confusing the fact that a private home with no public access will not be consdiered a "business premise" but there is NOTHING that says you need a retail location. ATK has no retail location and they mfg tons of firearms, DD's and ammo for the gov't...We mfg lots of ammo and DD's for the gov't, like I said before there are tons of wholesale locations in the US, with no retail sales. Call up Savage arms and ask to go to their "retail store".


Here's the table of contents for the green book,
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/index.pdf

Come on now, I'm giving you the answers...look them up and explain what license/SOT allows you to keep/collect post samples/demo guns- you won't be able to because you can't collect post sample guns (Law 5844(3) Reg 179.111(a)(3) Rul. 85-2)....then show me where it says in the green book where you have to have a retail location.

Post samples:
(d) Dealer sales samples. Subject to compliance with the provisions
of this part, applications to transfer and register a machine gun
manufactured or imported on or after May 19, 1986, to dealers qualified
under this part will be approved if it is established by specific
information the expected governmental customers who would require a
demonstration of the weapon, information as to the availability of the
machine gun to fill subsequent orders, and letters from governmental
entities expressing a need for a particular model or interest in seeing a
demonstration of a particular weapon. Applications to transfer more than
one machine gun of a particular model to a dealer must also establish the
dealer's need for the quantity of sample s sought to be transferred.

(f) Discontinuance of business. Since section 922(o), Title 18,
U.S.C., makes it unlawful to transfer or possess a machine gun except as
provided in the law, any qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer
intending to discontinue business shall, prior to going out of business,
transfer in compliance with the provisions of this part any machine gun
manufactured or imported after May 19, 1986, to a Federal, State or local
governmental entity, qualified manufacturer, qualified importer, or,
subject to the provisions of paragraph (d) of this section, dealer
qualified to possess such, machine gun.

Yeah so again what license/sot lets him collect post sample dealer demo guns?

So here's a suggestion, when you step up and say you know the rules, you better damn well know them REAL good because basically you are lying to this guy...and giving him advice that's wrong about retail locations, about being able to "collect" post dealer samples...and that's some really bad advice. What are you trying to do, help him get to prison?
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Old December 16, 2004, 08:33 PM   #11
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Somebody needs to relax a lil.........I feel such tension....
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It's a shame all of my guns sank with my boat last week...
Time to catch up.....like mayonnaise
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:00 PM   #12
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Someone needs a time-out.........
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:22 PM   #13
Hkmp5sd
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Well....I didn't have a store front either...

I ran an 01-FFL out of my residence for 11 years. It was mainly for doing transfers for my friends and acquaintances. I gave it up when I bought a new house and couldn't get an exemption on zoning.

Back during the Clinton administration, the chief groper teamed with the Brady Bunch to eliminate "kitchen table FFLs." The way they did that was to audit the FFL and during that audit, check every local/state license, zoning requirements, tax records and anything else they could come up with. If they found any violation, they revoked the FFL.

While they did make it more difficult, you can still get a FFL with your residence as the licensed premises.
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Old December 17, 2004, 07:23 AM   #14
Indy_SIG
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Quote:
While they did make it more difficult, you can still get a FFL with your residence as the licensed premises.
It is absolutely impossible in 2004 to get a FFL with your residence as the licensed premise. Your speaking from dated experience. I, too, originally acquired a FFL without a store front. It WAS possible 10-12 years ago. It is NOT possible today. It is possible to license a premise that is engaged in other business, such as a car dealership. However, the premise MUST be a store front of some type. Call your local BATF office and educate yourself.
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Old December 17, 2004, 10:31 AM   #15
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
Call your local BATF office and educate yourself.
Sorry, but from past experience, that is about as useful as asking Diane Feinstein. I don't believe anything unless it is in writing.

Can you point to any documentation that states a physical store front that is not at your residence is required?
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Old December 17, 2004, 10:57 AM   #16
shaggy
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Indy_SIG

There is NO requirement of a storefront. As has been asked by others, if you wish to prove us wrong, I'd certainly like to see a cite from the US Code or CFR thats says otherwise. The only requirement is that your FFL business is not operating in violation of any local laws including zoning regulations. If you recall when you get an FFL, you certify that once the license is issued you will not operate in violation of any local or state laws. Since MOST residential areas are zoned to preclude any commercial activity, you cannot get an FFL without at least a zoning variance. Some more sparsely populated residential areas, however, have no such zoning reregulations so a home-based business there is perfectly legal and acceptable to BATF. Its not about doing retail business, having a storefront, or any other such superficial issue. Its simply about BATF making a licensee comply with all applicable laws and regulations - including local zoning.
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Old December 17, 2004, 10:42 PM   #17
abelew
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Quote:
Call your local BATF office and educate yourself.
Then tell them to send you a copy of the requirements.
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Old December 18, 2004, 05:30 PM   #18
PsychoSword
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I never understood why anybody can get a C&R, but supposedly it's so impossible to get an 01 FFL unless you've got a retail business on Main Street. I'd love to get one and run a (very) small business and do internet sales as well.
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Old December 20, 2004, 08:08 PM   #19
CQBArms
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Again there is NO requirement to have a "retail location" look it up the word reatail does not exist in any of the BATFE regs, never, not once.

As to not being able to get an FFL in your home, I know of at lest 4 people that did it just this year in fact three have an 07 and is are SOT payers. one is a gunsmith with no reatail space and no published hours and one is just a wholesale dealer (01).

Again I can prove that there are home based "kitchen table dealers" getting licneses now, renewing licenses, and I can prove that there are tons of NON RETAIL mfg's and dealers...call savage arms in Westfield, MA and ask to buy a gun at their retail store. Call Camfour and ask to walk in as a retail customer and buy a gun from them...can't do it. In fact most mfg's and wholesalers speficically DO NOT maintain a retail space.

TO date all you've been able to say it you need one you need one...with no proof...just more bs.



http://www.camfour.com/
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