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Old September 27, 2004, 03:17 PM   #26
OBIWAN
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Speaking in generalities...since it is safer

Keeping in mind that missing your target is a waste of time, ammo and possibly your life.

I have always felt that speed becomes more important as distance closes.

The more the range increases the more opportunities for cover as well as slightly more time to aim.

But they both need practice....

I think there is merit to starting and ending you practice at longer range

To encourage better habits.

And as J.G. said...we hate doing things we suck at

Which explains why my weak hand accuracy is still as bad as it is!
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Old September 28, 2004, 04:34 AM   #27
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Quote:
After all, two zillion rednecks with pick-'em-ups and thutty-thuttys can't be wrong.
Hey! I resemble that remark!!!

One thing to also take into account is "pressure under fire". If the badguy gets the slightest jump on you (not necesarily shooting first but just realizing he has trouble) alot of times, they already have their weapon drawn and can fire with no regard for public saftey. Where as you have an obligation to be a safe shooter he can just spray bullets in your general direction. Thats why CQB could be real ugly if your not quick with your sight acquisition and initial shot. Therefor I tend to practice more between the 5 and 10 feet mark working on speed and accuracy. I still shoot at farther distances, but like mentioned earlier and the purpose of my post, sight acquisition is a little slower but not quite as dangerous as CQB.
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Old September 28, 2004, 08:36 AM   #28
Jeff Gonzales
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Interesting note

We just got done with our Combative Pistol Two class and interestingly enough we had some shots that were outside of "traditional" distance. While we build the scenarios to be conducted within a certain range we always find someone who deals with the problem differently. Having said that, it only reinforces the point that you really don't know what distances you will be at.

Ironically, on day one during our standards tests we have two timed shots from the holster at fifteen yards. I think the majority of the class had problems with that distance.

Later,
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Old September 30, 2004, 09:40 AM   #29
pbass
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Thought it over.

Good points here.

What I need is something like a speed rock (shooting as soon as my pistol clears my front jeans pocket), but *without* leaning backwards and putting myself off-balance.

Any ideas?

Last edited by pbass; September 30, 2004 at 01:06 PM.
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Old October 1, 2004, 03:48 PM   #30
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I enjoy shooting at longer ranges with my handguns. For defense I practice mostly between 3 feet and 20 yards. The only way to get better is practice, practice, practice. Having a friend to shoot with helps too, he can see things you're doing that you don't notice and friendly competition never hurts either.
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Old November 6, 2004, 05:51 PM   #31
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i depends

i would look up the specs on your gun and see at what range the gun was tested for accurecy at and use that range. most are done at 15m or yards but some are done out to as much as 35-40m. i would not go over 25m though, unless your praticing for competition or somthing. i usually shoot 10 and 15m but i still go out to 25 once in awhile just to make keep it fresh. thanks... joe.
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Old November 8, 2004, 03:32 AM   #32
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What Erik and others likewise similarly said.

Contact on out as far as the range allows. It should be possible to develope considerable speed close up, while this will be tempered some as distance increases with the increased need to accuracy.

pbass
Quote:
What I need is something like a speed rock (shooting as soon as my pistol clears my front jeans pocket), but *without* leaning backwards and putting myself off-balance.
You do not have to lean and put yourself off balance, and I do not see any advantage in doing so. You probably want to practice this in two distinct ways.

First in a static position. This could be that you are backed up against a wall, car or other obstacle - or maybe very uneven broken ground. Your foot stance is so that you are not only in balance, but braced and positioned to fend off a hands-on physical assault. At contact distance your assailant might grab and attempt to overpower you, run over you or simply fall into you. So your feet need to be positioned the resist a pushing load and any attempt to pull you forward etc. The weak arm is held high - the hand can be placed high against the target in a blocking fashion. Or it can be held similarly with an open hand about throat level in front of you ready to block (or take the opportunity to deliver a striking blow if needed) or to push and to keep your assailant at a distance.

Second, in combination with backing away from the target with the weak arm high across and tight into the chest. This keeps the arm out of the line of fire, while offering alittle protection to your vital organs. Be very careful backing up, practicing slowly and deliberately; you do not want to take a fall, and in any case you need to maintain control of the weapon and where the muzzle points no matter want.

Last edited by LAK; November 8, 2004 at 04:15 AM.
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Old November 10, 2004, 02:16 PM   #33
R LeComte
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Jeff in his humble way during CP1 in Denver, kindly pointed out to me that my ability at 15 and 25 yrds stunk. Why was that? I assumed :barf: that my potential encounters would be within 10 or so yards, so that is how I trained. See, I am just a CWP holder I said to myself. I had moved out of the true combat mindset since leaving the military. It is the mindset that prepares me for any eventuality not just the easy ones. Reality is I might be the only source of help for a limited time. Contact distance will vary, period. Statistics are changing; multiple and more multiple attackers, not only crimes against a person but terrorism now. A CCW holder might be the only person available on the scene to prevent a tragedy.

Needless to say, I was having a great day, Jeff kick me in the b***s . Really though, Jeff caused me to re-evaluate my mission statement, my self defense guidelines, mental trigger points, tactics, and training methodologies.

I am now spending 20 to 30 minutes each day in dry fire practice in all I was exposed to in Denver. Smooth is fast. I now have ~20 dry fire trigger pulls to each live round fired. When I am at the range, I start at the 25 yard line, stone cold, because that is the way it will be in reality, God forbid I am called upon. Sort’ a like a snipers CCB shot. You have to know where that bullet is going. We must have the confidence that we along with our chosen equipment will be up to the task that is given us.

I changed my holster from a 15 deg cant to straight drop. Now I do not bend at the waist (wasted motion) to get a perfect Combat Firing Grip. I made other changes too. All geared to make me better, more efficient and smooth. I thank Jeff for sharing some realities and personal experiences with the class so we could make some informed decisions that just might save a life.

Finally, I can only agree with everyone who has recommended that one seeks out and receive quality training. Make wise decisions when you select your trainers, the wrong one could put you out on a limb.

Rant off :
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Old November 17, 2004, 01:44 AM   #34
joerng
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hey be smart

if you are a civilian and under attack from a bad guy who is one hundred yards away... get the f#*k out. no need to stick around to chance dying just to prove you can shoot someone from 100 yards with your 45. because most likely even if you practice out to max range you can will miss in the heat of it. "take no chance with your life unless you are willing to loose." some smarter than me.
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Old November 21, 2004, 09:31 AM   #35
Jeff Gonzales
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Theoritically speaking

Distance is our friend, we know we should obtain it whenever possible. Each person's perception of distance will be different, but I think it is safe to say distance is a real good thing. Now, what you have done when you obtain distance, but cannot engage from distance is nothing more than shooting so quickly up close that you miss.

It is a delicate balance between speed an accuracy. What I see is complacency. Folks who are willing to settle for "statistics" are settling on someone else dictating their destiny, which is totally fine for some. For others, they believe they believe they are in more control of their destiny and there fore prepare for it. You can default to the high percentage of shootings at close range, that is not the issue here. The issue is the shooter needs to be balanced and capable.

The fact is shooting at distance is more difficult because our error box is larger. Most folks have a false sense of security about their shooting being "good" at close range when all they really have done is developed a consistent poor technique. Distance will not allow you to do that and folks always look puzzled when they cannot figure out how they shoot so well up close, but suck at distance.

Here are the facts:

1. the distance from your front sight to your eye has not changed.
2. the trigger sequence is the same, quick with minimal disturbance.
3. recovering the weapon for subsequent shots or threats is the same.

What has changed is your ability to hold the weapon system in alignment with the threat while you press the trigger.

I am sure there are others, but when we work at distance these are the important one. I had a shooter in our last class who consistently hit high around the throat area. He was somewhat pleased with his performance. When I asked him if he was aiming there he replied "no", but that they were good shots. My reply was "they suck..." They sucked because that is not where he was aiming, yet he tried to retrieve some justification for the issue. The bottom line was he had problems because he couldn't put the round where he wanted to when he needed to.

The primary reason why we work at distance isn't to humiliate people. It is to demonstrate flaws in their technique they didn't think they had because at the closer ranges those flaws go unnoticed. It is to perfect as much as possible their technique so the shooter can let the situation dictate their actions. It is to develop a higher level of confidence in their performance to be able to perform on demand. It is to push their limits of performance beyond what they thought possible.

I am always going to get the argument that statistically speaking you don't need to train at distance. Statistically speaking lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place. I was on a radio tower exposed to the elements when it struck three times in what seemed like eternity.

Later,
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Old November 21, 2004, 11:05 AM   #36
ghostdoc
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Man, You are so right. I just came from the range with my 226. Now, I'm in no way a good shot, but I can, at least, get center mass and even put most of my shots in the 8" ShootNC target at 10 yards, but out at 25 I'm all over the place. Also seem to be shooting best with cheapo White Box 115 gr. than Golden Sabre or Gold Dots. Go figure. Gotta slow down and concentrate a bit more. I think. Maybe take a course with Trident, If they get to New Jersey in 2005. Hint Hint. EdC
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Old November 21, 2004, 02:34 PM   #37
Jeff Gonzales
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Cheek our schedule

GD,

Thanks for the follow up post, glad it was helpful. If you get the chance check our schedule as we will be in NJ several times next year. Also, consider joining our mailing list to keep up to date on our activities.

Typically when people are having problems at the longer distance or any distance for that matter instructors will tell them to Slow Down. Slowing down can still produce the same problems. I know it is a figure of speach, but most student take it literally and still cannot improve.

What we really like to focus on was mentioned in your post. concentration, we need to intensify the focus on the fundamentals to produce the desired results. We have a new 1-day Profeciency Module coming out soon called Distance Shooting Technique (DST), which is nothing more than providing the instruction and opportunity to shoot at the greater distances. The focus of this class is not what most folks think, it provides the shooter a better understanding of the fundamentals and then boosts their skills confidence. When they see themselves shooting at targets from the 50 yard line in the same amount of time as they do at 25 yard line with the same type of hits it really helps boosts their ego and performance.

Take care and see you soon.

Later,
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Old November 23, 2004, 02:16 PM   #38
kcrowder
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Jeff,

Thanks for making sense of things, rare on the internet. I'll be seeing you at ITTS in Jan.


Keith
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Old November 23, 2004, 02:34 PM   #39
Jeff Gonzales
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No problem

Keith,

No problem, glad it actually made sense to someone. See you soon.

Later,
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