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Old July 20, 2004, 09:24 PM   #1
Nimitz87
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legality/advantage of pistol grip?

hi all im looking into buying a shotgun for home defense... what are the main advantages to a pistol grip?

also im not sure about the legality of pistol grips...what do the laws state? i live in Florida if that changs anything.

what brand should i be looking for? besides mossberg, and the remington 870...

what about the benelli M4?...

thanks

chad.
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Old July 20, 2004, 10:39 PM   #2
Dfariswheel
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The sole advantage is, compactness in tight spaces.

In the "real world" not Hollywood, the pistol grip shotgun is a special-purpose ONLY gun, usually for bodyguards or others who have to use a shotgun inside a car.

A quick trip through a real combat shotgun shooting course will turn up the DIS-advantages of the pistol grip.

The main problem is, it actually makes it harder and slower to get on target, and recoil makes it worse.

Most people who buy pistol grips quickly go back to full stocks when they find out they can't hit as well with the pistol grip.

Bottom line: unless you have a real need for compactness over effectiveness, the pistol grip is a "Hollywood" thing that will actually make your gun LESS effective.
It'll LOOK cool, but that's about it.
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Old July 20, 2004, 11:57 PM   #3
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What he said.
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Old July 21, 2004, 12:17 AM   #4
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thank you for the reply... but i dont know if were talking about the same thing... when i say pistol grip i mean one that has the shoulder stock as well...

if that was what your explaining then disregard what i said.

heres what i was talking about



what i was, i dont understand why it has both a shoulder stock and a pistol grip... and the advantages to it... doesnt seem very compact to me...

thanks

Chad
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Old July 21, 2004, 12:35 AM   #5
Abominable No-Man
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The beneli M1041 is the new shotgun the army and marines have recently adopted. I haven't handled one, but I believe that the stock is a telescoping setup similar to the M4.

At one time I had a Butler Creek folding stock on my Mossberg 500. I swapped it out after a while for a stock similar to the one you are talking about (I don't remember who made it), but on a Mossberg shotgun, they aren't very practical, and they aren't very comfortable (to me anyway).

The mossberg has a safety on the top of the receiver- this makes pretty much any pistol grip a liability if you plan to be able to use the safety quickly in a HD situation. With the Remington 870 (sorry, that's about the limit of my experience with shotguns), the safety is near the trigger, so the pistol grip is a little more plausible, but to be honest aside from looking cool, they don't do very much.

Personally, I like the speedfeeder (?) stocks- these hold three or four extra rounds in an internal spring-loaded tube. I think that instead of a pistol grip stock for your home defense shotgun, the money would be better spent on a speedfeeder stock and a forearm that has a socket for a maglite or surefire light (and possibly a decent set of ghost rigns.)

I've never heard of any legal problem with a pistol grip on a pump shotgun.

(edited because it's very late and I'm very tired....

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Old July 21, 2004, 12:50 AM   #6
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The confusion may have come in your choice of terms. Most of us think "pistol grip ONLY" when we hear "pistol grip shotgun". That is no buttstock, like the Mossberg cruiser. Those are the compact but not so useful models they were talking about.

A pistol grip and buttstock gives the ability to pull the gun into your shoulder more firmly, which should give the ability to fire more rapidly due to more positive control. Also, you can keep the weapon in the shoulder better if you have to take your off hand away to open a door or something. Some states (cali?) consider a pistol grip as a sign of eeeeevil and call such weapons "assault shotguns".

On a personal note, I wouldn't buy the Benelli M4 until after the Ban sunsets and they hopefully put a FUNCTIONING collapsible stock and a full length, non-blocked mag tube on it. It looks badazz but they've neutered the thing. You can get better/equal features for less money on several other guns.
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Old July 21, 2004, 12:57 AM   #7
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thank you... i was trying to determine the advantage and couldnt find any...

and that speed-feed stock looks pretty neat...

thanks

chad
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Old July 21, 2004, 01:07 AM   #8
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carebear- thats what i was looking for... sorry for the confusion didnt know exactly the terminology i was looking for.

so let me ask you do you recommend/use a pistol/buttstock equipped shotgun for your home? what are the DISadvantages to having this setup?...

edit: would it be better/cheaper to buy this http://www.remington.com/firearms/sh...70expsyn18.htm and if i would like the speedfeeder stock (pistol/buttstock)


or

#50665 590® 12 ga. Pump Action 9-shot capacity, parkerized finish, bead sight, 20" cylinder bore barrel with heat shield and Speed-Feed® stock. ...MSRP $519

with the mossberg its more expensive (not sure on how much the stock is though) you give up 2inches in barrel length but gain 3 more shots....

any comments are welcome on the above 2 firearms.

thanks

chad
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Old July 21, 2004, 11:37 AM   #9
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the DISadvantage

of the pistol grip is why I don't have one on my HD shotgun, and that is: When rapidly changing from a shooting grip (gun point forward), to a buttstock-stroke-to-BG-grip (gun pointed up over your left shoulder - for a right handed person - with a more or less downward force for the buttstroke), the regular stock is highly preferable to the pistol grip. Just try a pretend buttstroke with a pistol-gripped stock, and you'll see how contorted your right hand/wrist get, diminishing your power in the buttstroke. You want to preserve this less-than-lethal option in case the BG "don't need killin" and/or for liability reasons - if he's unarmed let's say. The pistol grip WITH a folding stock is good for tight corners, true, BUT that is why my PRIMARY home defense tool is a handgun - it's even better in this regard, with the shotgun slung over the back for a backup, if there's a bump in the night.
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Old July 21, 2004, 12:13 PM   #10
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Personally, if I was going to spend that kind of money, I'd be buying a Remington 870 Police shotgun.

The Mossberg uses a cast aluminum receiver, and the 870 uses forged and milled steel.

95% of all law enforcement in America use the 870, and the reason is, no shotgun is as durable, reliable, and tough as the 870.
The 870 has a 50 year, 7 million gun reputation for this, and no other gun sees as much abuse as the police give them and still work.

These guns just DON'T break, wear out, or give trouble.
The best estimate of the service life of the 870 is 250,000 rounds. That's a Quarter of a Million shotgun shells.

For a look at what Remington offers: http://www.remingtonle.com

To buy a Police gun, you need to find a dealer who will special order one from a Remington Law Enforcement Wholesaler.

If money is an issue, buy the 870 Express 18" model, and add whatever accessories as you want.
That's another BIG advantage of the 870: More accessories are made for it than all other brands combined.

The only "problem" with the pistol grip full stock pictured is, some people report that the rounds may tend to "bounce" out of the stock, or the springs may tend to jam up if not maintained carefully.

Whether the stock is "good" or "bad" is strictly a matter of person preference.....some people like the feel, and some don't.

Of the guns you're looking at, the 870 Express is the best "deal" money-wise, and you can modify it into anything you want.

If you want the "Cadillac" top-of-the-line gun, buy the 870 Police.
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Old July 22, 2004, 02:48 AM   #11
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If I'm transitioning the gun out of my shoulder to buttstroke I'm going to shift my hand to the waist of the stock anyway, same as I did on the M-16A2, so I'm not sure if that's a real disadvantage for me.

I'm probably not the best to ask for an opinion on what to get. I just know I am disappointed in the new Benelli based on how cool it is in the military config.

I have a Mossberg 500 12 ga. (Regal model, gold trigger, ooh ) cause I got a deal on it, it has the stock wooden stocks (pun alert) because I like the way they feel and for what I use a shotgun for they do just fine. I did put a regular old 2 point sling on it for carrying out in the woods when my hands are otherwise occupied but that's about it. No high-tech polymers, no $1000 custom mods. Just a nice gun that patterns ok and goes boom everytime. Looks classy by the bed too. All blue and gold and walnut and all.
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Old July 22, 2004, 06:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
the legality of pistol grips...what do the laws state? i live in Florida if that changs anything.
All firearms that are legal in the US are legal in the State of Florida. No problem on a PG'ed shotgun.

Before you hand over the money, shoot a pistol gripped shotgun and one with a conventional stock to see which you like best. I prefer a standard stock on a shotgun, yet like pistol grips on rifles better. It all comes down to personal preference.
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Old July 22, 2004, 08:23 PM   #13
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I have a full buttstock with pistol grip on a Winchester 1300 Black Shadow Deer model. I use it for deer hunting and then it sits there until next season. It just feels good to me so it boils down to personal preference.
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Old July 22, 2004, 11:49 PM   #14
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Dfariswheel - I appreciate your response... my father also told me to get the 870 i was just useing the mossberg as an example w/ the buttstock/pistol grip.

whats the differences between the 870express 18" and the 870P?

stocks, sights, and choke?

thanks

chad
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Old July 23, 2004, 01:17 PM   #15
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Hi Chad,

Here is a thread camparing the HD and police models

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149448

I have the 18" HD w/ 7 shot mag $285

you can add the stock speedstock tactical $79.99 from cabelas

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...rch&hasJS=true

note.. this stock is not the model that holds extra shells in the stock

still seems like a good deal at 80 bucks but the shell holding model would be sweet
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Old July 23, 2004, 10:34 PM   #16
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My, 'two cents': May be legal in your home state, and illegal anyplace else you take it. If you attempt to use it under stressful combat conditions, make absolutely certain that you grab it correctly and hold on tight because I, once, badly sprained my wrist with a weak hold on one of these puppies while I was shooting high brass. After the first shot I was through for the rest of the day. (week!)

I once advised an FBI agent, who was clearly enamored with a 14" barreled model he liked to carry inside an attaché case, to throw the damned thing away; and, NEVER under any circumstances, attempt to use it on the street. Don't know what he did; but, sometime later: He walked up to me, opened his case, and the pistol gripped shotgun was gone. He, just, said; 'Thanks!' winked at me and walked away.
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Old August 15, 2004, 11:22 AM   #17
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I have a pistol grip on my mossy 500a persuader(gift from my father, i love you dad), its points well to me ( for a gun you cant shoulder) youre arm takes all the reciol so after about 50 rounds it will be sore (mines was). It shot well, both my wife and i could hit a pie plate at 20 feet, about good for clearing baddies form your dwelling in the wee hours. I would love to find a folding pistol grip/rifle stock for it but none have really looked good to me, they all look cheap. And mossburg uses aircraft grade billit aluminum, not cast, t6 i beleive, strong stuff.
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Old August 15, 2004, 11:46 AM   #18
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blix, go to www.galatiinternational.com and browse the shotgun accessories, they have a side folder from ATI that looks pretty cool, also ATI makes quality stuff. I bought a dragunov stock for my 10/22 and I couldn't be happier. Also, with the side folder I think you get a free fore end.
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Old August 15, 2004, 04:47 PM   #19
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My Mossberg 500 has the straight conventional stock. I concur with FirstFreedom; if you're gonne mix it up at close range, and reserve the right to use you longarm as a melee weapon, the conventional stock is superior. Mine has a bayonet, so even doubly so.

My Benelli has a stock and pistol grip. Along with rifle sights, it seems to be a more natural, pure shooting configuration for more distance work.

Got a Winchester Defender with only pistol grip. This was for its compactness; first it was my one of my truck guns, now its one of the most destructive things I can shoehorn into my 350Z

Shooting this is definitely an acquired taste. I put on a pistol grip forearm, which helps marginally in taming recoil, but most of it still comes straight back into your shooting hand. Pistol grip shotguns are absolutely not for everyone, and take some getting use to.
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Old August 17, 2004, 02:55 PM   #20
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Personal preference. I installed a pistol grip on both my Mossberg 500 and Remington 870s. I prefer it because I find it much more comfortable and controllable in rapid fire.

As far as a pistol-grip equipped shotgun being at a disadvatage in CQB, I beg to differ. ANy CQB technique and ready positions that has was developed for the CAR-15s and subguns can be translated to a pistol-gripped shotgun.

FWIW, I've run the Darby Queen Bayonet Assault Course with a (pistol-grip equipped) M-16 many times so I do know how to use a bayonet.
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Old August 17, 2004, 08:18 PM   #21
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There seems to be a bit of confusion to me. Are we talking about a stock with a pistol grip, like say a Speed-Feed, or did Nimitz mean just a pistol grip?
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Old August 17, 2004, 08:25 PM   #22
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asked and answered counselor.

I had the same confusion, to me "pistol grip" means "no buttstock."

He, of course, meant the shoulder stock w/ military style pistol grip.

Cause that would make my assumption wrong.

Which they almost always are.
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Old August 18, 2004, 02:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
As far as a pistol-grip equipped shotgun being at a disadvatage in CQB, I beg to differ. ANy CQB technique and ready positions that has was developed for the CAR-15s and subguns can be translated to a pistol-gripped shotgun.
Right - all of which are inferior and slower than the technique used with a gun with NO pistol grip (such as a standard-stocked shotgun), IMO. And require more training as well.
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Old August 22, 2004, 04:29 PM   #24
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I have used the shoulder stock with pistol grip type stock on my shotgun.It is comfortable and natural as if shooting an AR-15.The only negative is that you have to remove the stock everytime you want to take the trigger group out while cleaning.This isn't needed when utilizing a conventional stock.That minor inconvience aside,I'm a big fan of this type of stock.
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