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Old November 30, 2002, 03:33 PM   #1
sjones
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strength of shotgun hulls?

Are the ribbed hulls stronger than the smooth hulls? I am new at this and bought winaa(grey) once fired. I shot som and brought them home to reload and when I did,some of them buckled or crinkled on the hull.The first time I reloaded them they didn't .I don't think I can adjust the final crimper much more or there wont be much depth at the crimp. thanks. sj
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Old November 30, 2002, 04:47 PM   #2
HSMITH
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If they are any stronger it is only marginally. In my experience if the hull is going to buckle it won't matter what type you try, they will all do it.

I would guess that you are using a slow powder in fairly large quantities AND winchester wads if you buckled a hull. Green Dot, International Clays or something like them? With a hull like the AA you have to watch what powders you use as some of them are just too bulky to load heavy in combination with the winchester wads like the WAA12 and WAA12SL. The Remington Figure 8 wad will give you more room, so will a Hornady Versalite or a Windjammer. Bumping the wad pressure up to 55-60 pounds MIGHT get you the room you need to crimp the hull, but you will still likely buckle a few.

If you want to use heavy charges of slow powder the Remington SP hull is a good choice (green or black ribbed with a steel casehead), it has a lot of capacity.

If you are buckling hulls and not using slow powders and winchester wads let me know and we can look in a different direction.
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Old November 30, 2002, 05:07 PM   #3
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shells buckling

Jack,yes I am using green dot(20.5grains) and clays(18.5grains) and waa12 wads,and waa12sl wads.Can I use a rem figure 8,or versalite? if so what color versalite?When I step where I am ready to crimp,it looks like there is too many pellets in there.They are sitting above the shot cup which doesn't leave much room to crimp. I have weighed the shot several times and it is in range. I also have the wad pressure set at 50 pounds,but it looks like the hull has too many pellets. I am reloading 7 1/2 size lead shot.any help will be appreciated. thanks. sj
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Old November 30, 2002, 05:15 PM   #4
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Jack,can I use a remsp hull with the powder I am using? I am reloading 2 3/4 inch shells. thanks again. sj
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Old November 30, 2002, 10:14 PM   #5
HSMITH
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Well, my name is Howard, is your name Jack? Oh well, it really doesn't matter.

Assuming the 20.5 green dot load is the 1 1/8th load and the 18.5 clays is the 1 ounce load I don't see a whole lot wrong. The loads you list should be snug, but not overly tight especially with 50 pounds of wad pressure. I have loaded up into the high 19s with the WAA12SL and clays, and loaded well up into the 23s with green dot and the WAA12 (I used to have a sadistic streak and needed to punish my shoulder badly) and did not have a lot of trouble.

The pellets are almost always just over the top of the wad petals, mine are too, 1/16th of an inch or a little less if I had to guess without measuring. If you have weighed the shot charge and it is within 50 grains or so of nominal I would not worry about the amount of shot at all. I would also assume you have weighed the powder charge and we can rest easy that it is within a tenth or two of a grain? If not I will have to break out my "you can NEVER trust bushing charts EVER" speach. Anyway continuing on, I am thinking that you are setting the crimp too deep and that is when and why the hull is buckling. I will go do some meausuring and try to give you some dimensions to look for on crimp depth and overalls and so on. Will post back in a few.
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Old November 30, 2002, 10:41 PM   #6
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OK, the first thing you are going to need to do is get rid of the swirl I told you was just fine. We need to get the press set up 100%, if after that point it swirls a little with one load or another it is not a big deal. To get rid of the swirl loosen the lock nut on the cam for the crimp die, station 5 on your press. This is the cam that actuates the crimp die that sets the depth of the crimp die. Raise it about 1/32nd of an inch and tighten the locknut. Try loading a shell, if the swirl is gone leave it, if it still swirls raise it a little more until it does not swirl. If you get a hole in the middle of the crimp adjust it down a hair. No swirl and no hole are what you are looking for.

After you get that set, look at the crimp depth and the overall length. Overall you are looking for 2.300-2.335". For depth you are looking for the center to be depressed below the outside .050-.070" . I shoot for overall of 2.320" and .060", this makes for a tight load, but easy to load with a variety of components. I have not adjusted my press in many moons.

Now, if you have to adjust the crimp depth (the crimp depth sets the overall length BTW, they are not seperate adjustments) you might need to go back to the cam adjustment. The crimp punch adjustment is like the bullest seating stem on a centerfire die, it will be right under the cam you adjusted. Loosen the jam nut and adjust as needed. You can chase this for a dozen shells or so, but it really is not that hard. Like I said my press has not been adjusted in a LONG time, once you get it set it will load just about anything.

Holler if you have any questions.
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Old November 30, 2002, 11:13 PM   #7
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thanks for all the info. sj
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Old December 1, 2002, 04:04 PM   #8
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Hi, sj:
Jack here. There's a couple more things to check. First, take a look at the lever that operates the primer feed off the crimp die. It runs across the back of the press. It should not contact the lock nut on the crimp punch during the stroke. If it does, bend it out a bit so it clears the nut. If it hits the nut, it pushes the crimp die down further than you want it to go and the case buckles. No amount of adjusting the cam or crimp punch will correct the crimp if the lever is hitting the nut. This drove me nuts before I solved it.

The new Winchester AA shells don't load like the old ones. No personal experience, but there's been considerable talk about them on trapshooters.com and Winchester has some advise on their website.
http://www.winchester.com/ammunition...s/reloadAA.eye

Apparently some of them have a separate cup shaped base wad that catches the wad and holds it up too high. There seems to be several variations in Winchester AAs in the last few years and the old boys aren't happy.

Try those Remingtons. They're easy.

Bye
Jack
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Old December 1, 2002, 09:09 PM   #9
sjones
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No,its not hitting the nut,its got a good 1/4 inch clearance.I guess my next step will be to get some remington hulls and see what happens. thanks, sj
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Old December 2, 2002, 10:37 AM   #10
lockandrock
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FWIW: I load both the winAA grey and red hulls just fine with no buckling. Depending on powder qty and wad type used you're final crimp or attempt to get that good factory crimp could be hamper.
I personally like the Rem STS hulls and pretty much use all remington components and mainly remington wads with my winAA hulls (SP10/RP10).

My crimps comes out just fine and solidly closed with no swirl or center hole.
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Old December 2, 2002, 04:41 PM   #11
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Well,I found the problem and boy am I glad that I did. I had set the powder adjustment for 20.5 grains of green dot. I measures 3 times and it came out right at 20.5 grains,so I thought I had that ready. Well,I thought I would just check one for the hell of it and What I found gave me goosebumps.They weren't 20.5 at all.the one I pulled was 35.2 with 2 lead shot in the powder cup.So I started opening them all up and found all of then at least 20 grains off withmost of them having anywhere from 1 to 4 lead shot in the powder portion of the shell. Now I am in the process of emtying 2 boxes to try and salvage the powder and shot.I sure am glad that I decided to check some.I'm pulling that adjustable charge bar and going with the regular mec bar and bushings.I hate to think what would have happened if I had shot any of those. sj
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Old December 2, 2002, 05:06 PM   #12
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Don't give up on the adjustable bar. I would not load without one. Something happened, and you need to find out what it was because it may happen with the MEC bars too. Pellets in the powder tells me that one or both of the necks on the bottles are worn out or were not screwed down snugly. To be throwing nearly double charges something is drastically wrong, mark the setting on the charge bar with a grease pencil and load a few, see if it is moving. You may been to tighten up the friction screw to keep it from moving.

GET A BAFFLE for the powder!!!!!!!! Get one NOW!!!. I have never had the powder charge move once I put one in. When you fill the powder bottle tap it on the sides and top to settle the powder out, when it stops moving you can stop tapping. The motion of the press will pack the powder in the bottle if you don't do it beforehand and the charge weight thrown will increase.

You have also learned a VERY important lesson, sample the loads for powder charge every once in a while. I load on a progressive, so I load large quantities at a time. Even when I am craking out a run of 1000 shells or more I sample one shell about every 25 loads. Pull it out of the press and weight the charge, your scale will already be set for the weight so if the beam floats all is good. Takes less than 10 seconds.

You very likely could have shot them and not blown up yourself or your shotgun, but it is MUCH safer to catch them before. Double charges happen once in a while on some presses if the operator is not paying attention, I have seen a few of these shot at the range, pop pop BOOM type of thing. Scary to be standing next to the guy.
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Old December 2, 2002, 06:21 PM   #13
sjones
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I have already ordered a baffle. If the friction nut on the side of the bar is loose,will that cause extra shot or powder to fall also. I had it very loose so I could slide the bar easier. Also it seemed to dropa few pellets on the crimping stage,unless I tapped several times on the bar after the shot drop. thanks. sj
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Old December 2, 2002, 06:24 PM   #14
JackM
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Hi, sj:
Yikes I'm with Mr. Smith, you've got to figure out why this happened.

Questions: Are you using the rubber washers under the bottles and the brass washer under the washer on the powder side?

What size shot are you using? Shot could be hanging on a burr on the inside of the rammer tube at the bottom. If there is a burr, file and polish it out. Larger shot's worse. Do you have a small gauge rammer tube? My old 12 gauge Sizemaster tube is .560" at the bottom, and the new one likely are bigger.

Is there any chance little fingers twiddled the knob on the adjustable bar? Did you check powder weight during the cycle, while running a shell though? Just sliding the bar back & forth will throw light. Knock out a really tight primer can rattle the loader quite a bit, especially if it's a Winchester AA 20 gauge with some plastic in the primer pocket. I deprime them separately the first time. Add the snaps from the resizer and crimper releasing and you've got quite a bit of powder settling vibration.

According to my old chart, you should have your bar set between 7 and 8 for 20.5 grains of Green Dot. If you're throwing a double charge on a single stroke, it must be screwed out all the way to 15.

A baffle helps, but not having one doesn't explain a double charge.

Something doesn't compute. Check out everything and get back to us.

Bye
Jack
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Old December 2, 2002, 07:45 PM   #15
sjones
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Jack and everone else:I just looked at tie reloader and there was no washer under the shot or powder under the rubber pieces. I found one the other day loose and I thought it went under the bar where the concave hole goes to the drop tube,thats where I put it. Maybe I should put it under the rubber for the powder? I checked the setting I wrote down for the powder and it was 9+2.No little hands around here ,they are all grown and gone.I just tried the 1 ounce mec bar and it takes 19 7 1/2 shot to ballance the scale. I tried a #29 powder bushing aiming for 17.5 clays and it stopped at 17.4 ten times in a row,so that looks good but Is the shot bar supposed to be that far off?I decided to go back to 1 0z and try that.I probably put that washer in the wrong place. sj I swear,loading my 45acp on my dillon 550 was a lot easied than this.
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Old December 2, 2002, 08:26 PM   #16
HSMITH
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When you throw #9 shot that charge bar will throw just a tad heavy. It is a balancing act for MEC, they need to make it close for several shot sizes so they regulate to #8 shot which is kida the middle of the road. Chilled shot will show a little heavier than magnum shot too.

The baffle will get rid of that washer, and that washer needs to be gotten rid of. It is not a friendly piece.
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Old December 2, 2002, 09:59 PM   #17
JackM
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Hi, sj:
There's two problems here, or rather at your place, and Mr. Smith and I aren't there to look things over. So I'm up here in Saskatchewan scratching my head and wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Ok, my old chart shows 9+1 throwing 24 grains and I see in my notes that I set at 6+14 for 19.0 grains of Hercules Green Dot, while the chart says 6+4. Alliant Green Dot is about 8% denser, so your 9+1 should throw about 25 grains. Which doesn't explain 35.2 grains.

Your shot is bridging somewhere if you're getting it in the powder or if pellets drop from the rammer tube when you crimp. Either it's bridging at the bottom of the tube on a burr or the washer flipped around under the bar and is hanging up some pellets, and likely powder too. Get it out of there. It goes smooth side down under the rubber washer on the powder side. It's easy to forget it when you're changing bars. Pull the bar and it drops out. Push the new bar in and it goes out the other side.

If your bar is hard to push, the pro check might be dragging. Thats the piece that the bolt goes though and into the charge bar. Stick a small screwdriver under the right end where it goes through the slot in the measure body before you tighten the bolt. That way you centre it in the slot.

When you unscrew the shot bottle, put your finger in the red cap plug. If you don't, it will come out, sooner or later, and you'll have a real shot spill. Ask me how I know. The cap plugs are actually hydraulic hose end protectors and anybody who works with hydraulics probably has a pailfull in the shop.

I'm still

Bye
Jack
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Old December 2, 2002, 11:19 PM   #18
sjones
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Is the charge bar okay to use with 7 1/2 shot being that far off? I'll put the washer under the powder rubber and see how that works.I've been on vacation for the last 2 weeks.but I have to go back to eork tomorrow. I work at a chemical plant on a 4 on 4 off rotational shift. 0930 t0 2130 for 4 days then 2130 to 0930. So for the next 4 days I won't have much time to work with it.Maybe a few minutes here and there.I 'll let you know how it comes out. sj
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Old December 2, 2002, 11:22 PM   #19
sjones
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is that brass washer just used on the adjustable charge bar?or is it used on the mec bar too? thanks.sj
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Old December 2, 2002, 11:39 PM   #20
JackM
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Hi, sj:
The brass washer is standard MEC equipment when you're using their fixed bars and ball powders. Instructions are on the back page of the 1983 manual.

Magnum high antimony shot will meter light, just as a hard cast bullet weighs less than a pure lead or 40:1 lead-tin bullet will, when they're cast from the same mould. Your pellet count doesn't suffer near as much. IIRC, magnum shot runs 6-8% antimony.

Bye
Jack
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Old December 3, 2002, 09:09 AM   #21
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Yes it is fine to use with 7.5 shot. Yes you need the washer on the adjustable charge bar, until the baffle gets there anyway.
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Old December 3, 2002, 10:44 PM   #22
sjones
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You mean when I get my baffle I won't need to worry about the brass washer? I put the mec bar in and then put the washer in the bttom of the powder hole and the the rubber washer in. It feels like the rubber has dried out because it isn't soft,it is hard and stiff. sj
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Old December 7, 2002, 12:49 AM   #23
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When the baffle comes in it will have a spring loaded plastic part that seals, the washer and rubber gommet can go in the trash where they belong.
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