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Old November 1, 2002, 02:12 PM   #1
buzz_knox
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SWAT saved me money!

Having been bitten by the urban rifle bug lately (thanks to SWAT's article), I've been looking at building an AR-15. I got the download of Pat Roger's article on carbine manipulation and saw that grabbing the front of the mag well was a legit technique if you didn't have a forward grip. This saved me a bit of money as I had been planning on getting a RAS/SIR system for the foregrip and light. Now, I think I'll hold off and see if I can make do without it. That's a few hundred I can spend on other toys!
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Old November 1, 2002, 02:42 PM   #2
Rich Lucibella
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Glad we could help. There's a fairly long discussion in this Forum on that article.
'Bout 6 weeks ago.
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Old November 7, 2002, 03:01 PM   #3
Correia
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New bit of info to think about on foregrips as well. Got this from a friend who is a NG armorer. He has been talking with some of the guys from our local SF group who have rotated back home from Afganistan.

He said that they have had a few guys put sufficient downward pressure on the Knight foregrip that they actually broke the locking lugs while the M4 was being fired.

I'm not at all familiar with the Knight system, but I guess that there are 2 kinds, one that mounts like regular handguards, and one that screws on like a float tube. This problem was with the first one.
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:04 PM   #4
Pat Rogers
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RAS

Correia,
Force has been using the RIS/RAS with the verticle foregrip since 1998, and we have never seen one RIS/RAS break any part for any reason, period.
I am not doubting your source- just that we have not experienced this.
Nor have we seen any official notifications (as in a PQDR) or the SOCCOM equivelent through channels advising of this.
If your buddy has any official paper on this, we'd certainly like to see it.
Anecdotal stuff is important, and often precedes official notification, but sometimes it is not verifiable or just a war story.

Of course, i'm not sure what he means by locking lugs. This is what is on the bolt, and they will crack/ break when it comes to 10K-14K rounds or so.
There are no locking lugs on the RIS/RAS, but rather 4 MilStd 1913 rails at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions.
Is talking about the MilStd 1913 rail ?
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:20 PM   #5
buzz_knox
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I'm not Correia, but I think he's referring to the bolt lugs. Hasn't there been at least some discussion that all the gear being placed on the RAS is causing lockup problems? Putting pressure on the grip might add to the issue, if it exists.

Mind you, I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of the issue so if I'm mistaken, I would welcome correction.
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:38 PM   #6
Pat Rogers
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RAS?

Roger, that may be it, and anecdotal stuff dies hard, but the presentation was confusing (at least to me!).
The fact is that a non FF forend may accelerate that but from our experience promiscuous full auto fire will grossly accelerate wear on the bolt. Again, we see the lugs crack at 10-14K rds, at about which time the throat is sufficiently eroded to replace the upper anyway.
Compare this with the M16A2, which- in the hands of the average Marine Grunt, will see 500rds per year down range.
They will of course last forever.
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Old November 12, 2002, 09:32 AM   #7
buzz_knox
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Given that I can't spring for a Class III toy . . . I mean, tool, I don't think I'll have to worry about cracked bolt heads. For me, rapid fire is only cussing for a few seconds between missed shots.
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