The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 23, 2002, 02:10 PM   #1
Zak Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,675
Some full-power 9x19 data (124/VV-3N37)

WARNING! CAUTION! Always follow published data. The following loads didn't blow up my guns, but they might blow up yours!.

Since 9x19 ammo is so cheap, I normally wouldn't reload it. However, my "carry" load is the Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, from either Speer or Proload, and it shoots little differently than the standard-pressure 115gr stuff I usually shoot (last 3000 rounds were the Danish surplus).

My goal was to load up a 124gr+P equivalent round for practice, at a price much less than the 50-round Speer GD boxes, which is about $14.50 out the door of my local shop.

Before I continue, here's the "control" data:
Code:
Temp ~ 70F, altitude approx 5,000'.
Control: CCI .22LR in Browning Challenger: 1041fps
Some factory loads:

Danish 9x19 (115gr) - Glock 19: 1226 ( 8.5)
Danish 9x19 (115gr) - BHP:      1248 ( 9.4)    (+1.8%)

Speer GD 124+P -      Glock 19: 1279 (20.2)
Speer GD 124+P -      BHP:      1322 (20.3)    (+3.3%)
My first try was Stephen Camp's load: 6.0gr Unique with a 124gr bullet. I used new, resized, Win. cases and WSP, and set the OAL minimum to 1.120", as spec'd in the Speer reloading book. The OAL ended up ranging from 1.120 - 1.125", since I used a nominal value of about 1.122".
Code:
6.0gr Unique/124GD -  Glock 19: 1243 (40.9)
6.0gr Unique/124GD -  BHP:      1271 (46.6)    (+2.2%)
Unique (even the new "cleaner" formula) is still really dirty. Various people here, WESHOOT2 in particular, have said that VV-3N37 is "THE" full-power 9x19 powder. In fact, it says as much in the front of the Speer book. My reference for full-power 3N37 loads was the VV book, as reprinted in the "LoadBooks" pamphlet, which lists:
Code:
Data listed: 6.5gr -> 1192fps,
             7.3gr -> 1295fps (36300 PSI)
in a 4" barrel.
This is with an OAL of 1.142", notably LONGER than the Speer spec.

Here's my results (Glock 19 - 4" barrel):
Code:
gr  v      sd
6.4 1197 20.3
6.5 1186 23.5   book lists 1192, only 6fps difference!
6.6 1186 14.8
6.7 1213 22.7
   ---
7.0 1261  7.0
7.1 1253 20.1
7.2 1286 18.5
7.3 1299 15.3   book lists 1295, only 4 fps difference!
7.4 1311 21.2



None of these "felt" different than the Speer GD factory loads, so I'll probably settle at 7.2gr or below.

I don't have a good explanation for the "dips" in the graph.

Enjoy.

Zak
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 124gd-3n37.jpg (17.4 KB, 91 views)
Zak Smith is offline  
Old September 23, 2002, 08:26 PM   #2
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,242
DID I HEAR A 'BANG' (or a 'boom'?)

Funny you should mention 3N37, 9x19, and me...............

Working on a +P+ 115g JHP load yesterday (working on thirty different things; know what I mean?) but was reminded WARNING!!! 3N37 is TEMPERATURE-SENSITIVE.

Hmmmm.............
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old September 23, 2002, 09:20 PM   #3
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: April 16, 1999
Posts: 2,570
Hello. A most interesting post and one that didn't come easily. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Best.
Stephen A. Camp is offline  
Old September 23, 2002, 09:31 PM   #4
Zak Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,675
Where can I find a table or formula that will map "change in temperature" to "change in pressure" for 3N37 ?

If I know that, then I can design with the appropriate safety margin...

thanks
Zak
Zak Smith is offline  
Old September 24, 2002, 01:28 AM   #5
Johnny Guest
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: August 28, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,116
Interesting stuff--

Looks to me, just reading your charted information at face value, like your 7.0 load is only 10 fps below the GDHP in your G19--plenty good for a practice load.

I also wonder what made for the dips. How many of each load did you chronograph?

I notice your loads were tested at 70 degrees F. Do you have some saved up to test on a warm day? I understand that "people say" this powder is quite temp sensitive, but, I wonder if dangerously so. Might be you don;'t WANT to load much hotter when the temp's about 80 or 85.

Let us know results of your testing, and, please, try to keep the fingers and eyes as originally arranged.

Best,
Johnny
__________________
MOLON LABE!
Amendment II ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Blog: Expert Witness
Johnny Guest is offline  
Old September 24, 2002, 04:41 AM   #6
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,242
OR

Put gun and ammo in freezer, remove and chrono.

Then put gun and ammo in oven (yes, I know....), remove and test.

BE REAL CAREFUL if following this advice; think.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old September 24, 2002, 11:07 AM   #7
Zak Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,675
I only loaded 5 at each point. While shooting, sometimes the chrono graph didn't "register" all shots, so some points ended up having less data.

For example, the 7.4 point only had, I think, 3 shots register.

-z
Zak Smith is offline  
Old September 24, 2002, 11:21 AM   #8
Zak Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,675
Critique requested.

Can some of you critique my method as far as safety and prudence goes?

I think this was reasonably safe, because I:
  1. started well below the published data (6.4), and only the 7.4 point exceeded published maximums by 0.1gr.
  2. shot them in a gun known to handle full-power 9mm.
  3. used new cases and carefully monitored OAL.
  4. worked upwards, first noting anything that "sounded" or "felt" much different than existing +P rounds.
  5. noted the velocity plot didn't level off, which often happens when you're approaching the top.
  6. noted the velocities achieved matched the "expected" published values with less than 1% variance.
  7. did this whole experiment with a "slower" powder
  8. examined the fired cases after each "string" to look for really bad signs such as pierced primers, really flat primers, or excessive bulging.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to measure pressure and wouldn't have to guess, but that's beyond what is feasible.

Thanks
Zak
Zak Smith is offline  
Old September 25, 2002, 04:34 AM   #9
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,242
PERFECT

Usually, I just rachet up my powder charge until something blows......NO, JUST KIDDING.

WARNING: DANGER: STOP!: use chrono to 'map', observe case condition, "in YOUR gun"...........

'Dips' mean "more testing"; may have more 'room', be very very careful as you move up at the 'top'; suggest .1g increments, minimum 20 test/chrono rds per load, size new cases, your 'map' is your friend -- observe rigorously.

All you kids close your eyes..............smithz, still MAY have some 'room'. Be careful.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old September 25, 2002, 10:36 AM   #10
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,973
Smithz,
I have overloaded 30 calibers in 1000 load work ups to see what happens.

Based on my 115 gr and 147 gr overload notes*, I would suspect a feed ramp case bulge with 124 gr bullets and 3N37 at about [don't try it] ~~ 9.6 gr~~ [don't try it].
You only got up to 7.4 gr.

I would hate to imagine anyone who can't spot the pressure signs working up these loads. They are not idiot proof at all. All the baloney in load books about approach with care is actually true for these. I learned the hard way about feed ramp case bulges. Only .7 gr more powder and blam, a hole in the case. Only .3 gr more and the whole case head comes off and blows up the extractor, hold open, and magazine floor plate. Also some brass debris can come back through the ejector slot in the slide and hit the shooter in the face. The bloody spectacle is called "Major face". Once I leaned this on 9x19, I have only worked up till I see the tiny little smiley faced bulge on the case from the feed ramp. Then I reduce the loads by a reasonable safety margin. Maybe not the load book safety margin [which can be as high as 250%] but at least 6% below the feed ramp case bulge for carry loads. I have avoided trouble this way in 10mm, 25acp, 32acp, 380, 9x23, 357 Sig, 40sw, and 45acp. In overloading non feed ramp cartridges I look for other signs in the brass: 32sw, 32Colt, 38sp, 38sw, 45 long Colt, .410, 7.62x54R, 8x57mmJS, .243, and 45/70. Some guns are not as strong as the brass, and the gun fails.

*With a Kel-Tec P11 9x19mm pistol [just about the same terrible .190" of feed ramp intrusion into the case support as a Glock 19] I worked up the max loads with 1.169" OAL and RP primed brass.

In the case of this 40sw feed ramp, when I welded it up and re cut the chamber and feed ramp, the threshold of kaboom went from 26% overload to over 68%. CASE SUPPORT IS A FIRST ORDER VARIABLE!
http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=662131
http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=663556

There is also the question of what is an overload.
The "VV1" book is hotter in the 9mm than "VV3". There are different loads of 9x21 that have a longer over all length, but are still short enough to fit in a 9x19 magazine.

Hornady 147 gr HPBT XTP
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 6.1 gr 3N37, 1152 fps 36.3kpsi
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 5.7 gr 3N37, 1140 fps 36.3kpsi
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x21mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.161", 6.6 gr 3N37, 1227 fps 42.8kpsi
Vihtavuori 3rd edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 5.2 gr 3N37, 1066 fps max
Vihtavuori 3rd edition:9x21mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.161", 5.5 gr 3N37, 1120 fps max
Clark is offline  
Old September 25, 2002, 11:36 AM   #11
Zak Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,675
Let me be clear here. I'm not trying to push this load further, just duplicate velocities I know are attainable by factory ammunition, by using a slow powder and new components.

When inspecting the brass, none of these loads had abnormal bugles. Yes, the thin wall of the case expands to fit the chamber- just like it does with factory ammo.

WESHOOT2, besides the levelling-off, what other features of the "charge/velocity" map should one look at?

thanks
Zak
Zak Smith is offline  
Old September 29, 2002, 09:36 AM   #12
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,242
MAPPING

IMNSHO consistency, IOW, for each 'X' of powder you get 'Y' of velocity.
"So I add .2g and get 30fps, and I add another .2g and get 32fps so I add another .2g and I get 28fps and I add another .2g and I get 31fps....."
And then I add another .2g and I get 7fps, or I get -33fps or 88fps......uh-oh.......

But JUST BECAUSE I've "mapped" a powder/bullet/gun does NOT mean I can trust guessing, er, "mapping"; testing required.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09431 seconds with 10 queries