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Old June 27, 2000, 12:49 AM   #26
DOCSpanky
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Keep mine in safe with keys masking taped to headboard underside, 6 rounds of #7 birdshot in the Mossy 500! Like the Aguilla mini-shells, but they function reliably only about 80% of the time, and that is unacceptable. Have been told that I can have the feed ramp, or whatever the little thing is that lifts the shell after it pops outta the mag reshaped to function with the 100% reliability that I demand!

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Old June 27, 2000, 04:18 AM   #27
tuc22
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DOCSpanky,
Birdshot?
Are you expecting a flock of some kind of North American game bird to perpetrate a home invasion. Sorry, could not resist the analogy. No offense intended.
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Old June 27, 2000, 06:47 AM   #28
Dave McC
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Tuc, at typical hD ranges the load hits as a solid mass. The shells could be loaded with breath mints at 10 ft and be good stoppers.
A case could be made for small shot at very close ranges being MORE effective than 00, a couple hundred tiny spheres transferring energy and deforming into spheroids.

Had an ER surgeon tell me once how difficult it was to deal with a wound of that type, he called it, "a bloody rathole"...
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Old June 27, 2000, 12:14 PM   #29
tuc22
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What B.S.! you won't get reliable penetration with dove loads or whatever you call them. If your BG is wearing any kind of clothing such loads are very dumb( if he's bareassed you're in luck). This whole tired discussion about birdshot loads and wallboard penetration is misinformed. Sure, you can blast a hole in a guy with just the gases from the muzzle but that changes with distance, same argument can be made for birdshot. Bottom line use heavier pellets-buckshot in #4 is much, much better.
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Old June 27, 2000, 07:25 PM   #30
Dave McC
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Tuc, I spent years as an instructor,served on the Tac Team Weapons Squad for Md DOC and have more experience with what a shotgun can or cannot do than most folks.Been hunting with them since 1958 also.

Try this...

Wrap a can of soda in a T shirt, then a sleeve from a flannel shirt and then the leg from an old set of jeans.Add whatever other cloth layers you deem appropriate. Hang it up and back off 5 yards or so and shoot it with a "Dove load".Better yet,make it the longest distance you'd have to shot in YOUR house.

If that can isn't leaking like Clinton's credibility, the first round's on me.

That is,assuming you hit it...
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Old June 28, 2000, 08:37 AM   #31
jthuang
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Ah, the birdshot penetration issue.

At very close distances, the birdshot will not have left the shot cup. The end result is the entire mass of birdshot slamming into the target. Not quite a slug but at contact distance, pretty dang close.

Beyond contact distance (0-7 yards) birdshot is probably not your best choice for defensive use. But there are people who live in smaller apartments in the city who can be well served by stoking their defensive scattergun with birdshot.

Gabe Suarez, who is a member of this board, says basically the same thing in his book "The Tactical Shotgun".

HTH,

Justin



------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Old June 28, 2000, 11:56 AM   #32
tuc22
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I'll stick to what I said earlier about the relative ineffectiveness of birdshot. Why use it if there is a better way? It's that issue of wall penetration again isn't it? Oh, and Farmer John used to use rock salt out of his scattergun too,(to scare trespassers) The myths abound when it's about the shotgun.

[This message has been edited by tuc22 (edited June 28, 2000).]
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Old June 28, 2000, 01:13 PM   #33
JNewell
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>contact distance (0-7 yards) &lt;snip&gt; people who live in smaller apartments[/quote]

Uh huh, even folks who live in bigger apartments probably won't have too many 7 yard self-defense shots? &lt;g&gt;

Wouldn't be my first pick, but mebbe under these circumstances, it's justifiable. There's always breath mints... &lt;ggg&gt;

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Old June 28, 2000, 11:16 PM   #34
Blue Jays
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Good Evening Everyone-

Dave McC's resume reads like a "Who's Who Among American Shotgunners" so I hardly think he would steer us in the wrong direction. Let's agree to disagree if it can keep the threads moving...

Regardless of whatever is coming out of the barrel, who wants to stand around picking their nose at the angry end of a SG? It sher' ain't me!

Can't we all just...get along?

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~
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Old June 29, 2000, 04:28 AM   #35
tuc22
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Yeah, yeah.
Since some here believe the shotgun is a CQB weapon and therefore can use close range loads like birdshot (LOL!) I will then repectfully disagree and will choose to utilize a long gun at the range it was meant to be used at and load it accordingly, thank you very much.

CQB= Close Quarter Battle or in close fighting i.e., when opponent is within your reach and you are within his. Here he grabs the bird gun.
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Old June 29, 2000, 12:24 PM   #36
Dave McC
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Thanks, Blue Jays,flattery will get you anything(G)....

One thing, I'm more of a generalist than a specialist. The hot shots down at the skeet, trap or clays range, or in the practical or IPSC matches need lose no sleep over my possible competition. But I've done most everything there can be done with a shotgun at some point,and regard it as my duty to pass along what I can.

My shotgunning this year will probably consist of some clays,informal handthrown trap, some dove hunting where plenty of lead gets returned to the Earth(G), maybe a little snow goose shooting, and benchtesting and zeroing my deer 870 and then using same in November for freezer detail. I skipped turkey season for lack of time, and will not go quail hunting unless someone with a good dog invites me. Maybe squirrel hunting and rabbits. I'll almost certainly teach someone along the line, tho I no longer instruct formally.

Tuc, we can agree on disagreeing, but I urge you to try that exercise with the soda. You'll learn something I think you could use.
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Old June 29, 2000, 12:50 PM   #37
tuc22
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Can you fill that soda can with a heart, lungs, organs, arteries, and a brain bent on killing you? I didn't think so. If the soda leaks out what does that tell you?
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Old June 29, 2000, 01:08 PM   #38
Ledbetter
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Longest possible distance shot in my home=12 yards.

Backstop=sliding glass door, 10 feet of unobstructed space, 5/8" wood fencing, five more feet of space and then my neighbor's exterior wall (which has bedroom windows).

I'm using a pistol for home defense right now, but if I used my shotgun I wouldn't be using #4 buckshot.
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Old June 29, 2000, 06:40 PM   #39
Dave McC
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It won't leak out, Tuc,chances are you'll be wiping some off your shooting glasses. The can will be ruptured, and soda spattered far and wide.

This is useless....
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Old June 29, 2000, 09:11 PM   #40
jthuang
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While I will be vacating my current apartment shortly, I am also looking at a realistic HD range of about 10 yards, assuming I am ensconced in my saferoom with the Benelli pointed towards the top of the staircase.

Now if I was a big-shot Boston attorney, I might be able to afford a bigger place.

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Old June 30, 2000, 04:07 AM   #41
tuc22
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"This is useless...."

My thoughts exactly!!
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Old July 2, 2000, 10:32 PM   #42
schlickenmeyer
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As a police friend once put it, "Have you ever FIRED a shotgun indoors?". the short range caused the reflected blast to make him think he had been shot. Handguns indoors is now a rule I am considering more and more..
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Old July 2, 2000, 11:04 PM   #43
Coronach
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Well, I leave a thread alone for a few days and see what happens?

Birdshot at close range...unreliable penetration...soda cans in t-shirts...oye vey.

I'm no ballistics expert. I've never shot anyone with anything at any range. I have seen lots of training films, though, and done a lot of training under some very good (though local-level) instructors. I can't believe they were ALL lying to me.

At the ranges we're discussing, a shotgun loaded with ANYTHING is amazingly lethal, whether you have slug, buckshot, birdshot, breath mints, tofu or balled up boogers flying out of the end. The individual pellets have had 0.0000001 seconds to spread. If the front rank of pellets underpenetrates, the ones trailgating them at 2 microns distance will push 'em further in.

Arguments about range changing are perfectly valid if we are discussing what-if scenarios and not pure HD. I'm a what-if kinda guy. I'll load my SG with buckshot for that exact reason. Its what I train with at my PD, anyway. However, any allegations that birdshot won't get the job done for pure HD are, IMO, off-base.

If the range is short, it'll do the job.

If the range is longer, you shouldn't be shooting at your target.

I will certainly defer to wiser heads than mine about penetration vs various walls...I don't worry about it. I'm the third little piggy...my house is brick.

Also, CQB... eh. Someone has probably said this already, but if so, I missed it. Shotgun=barricade. Houseclearing=Pistol.

Cheers,
Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
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