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Old May 7, 2002, 09:58 PM   #1
ryucasta
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Official Kneepads response from IDPA HQ

I originally posted this thread on the 1911 forum I'm also posting it here for informational purposes.

The following is the Official IDPA response to the kneepad question from Dru Robbins at IDPA HQ. By their own admission they state it’s a rule but it’s not in the rulebook.

I would think that they have had more than enough time since 1999 to amend the rulebook with this particular rule. But then again it might be that the person who updates the rulebook might be a member of the procrastinators club.


----- Original Message -----
From: IDPA
To: Akula
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: 1911Forum Board - Kneepads & IDPA.htm

Mr. xxxxxxxxx,



That does not appear in the rulebook at this time, but is in fact a rule.



Thanks,



Dru Robbins

IDPA Coordinator



-----Original Message-----
From: Akula
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 8:01 PM
To: info@idpa.com
Subject: 1911Forum Board - Kneepads & IDPA.htm



To whom it may concern,

Could you all provide clarification on this topic, it doesn’t appear in the rulebook and quite frankly I don’t have the tactical journal the moderator is mentioning in his response.


Sincerely,


xxxx xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx




xxxxxx states:



xxxxx:
I found your answer. The rule came out in the Tactical Journal, Third Quarter 1999, Volume 3, Issue 3. It was in an article by Ken Hackathorn, Safety Officer Seminars 99, page 6:
"Kneepads can be worn, but must be under your garment out of view. If there is a problem with a surface that the contestant must kneel on, then it is the Match Director or Chief SO's requirement to pad the surface to prevent knee injury."

Thank you all for the help in researching the answer. The thread is closed.
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Old May 8, 2002, 09:29 PM   #2
spd522
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I think the "rule" is a bunch of crap, considering so much of IDPA requires you to shoot from a kneeling position. Let's face it, most ranges are chat, gravel, and an assortment of spent brass. None are forgiving when you drop a kneecap on them.

I think they shoot be a little more concerned with shooter safety than "Is it tactically correct " or "Do you always wear knee pads when you go out".

Just watch the muzzle direction when a shooter drives his knee into a piece of brass on the ground with the casemouth up. Ever seen a cookie cutter?

Plus some of us have had prior knee problems and a little padding will go a long way in our ability to keep coming to these matches to participate.

Just wear one of the neoprene knee "braces". They don't really have the padding like regular kneepads, but they will help prevent injury to you and officials can't say much about a necessary piece of medical support. It would be like saying you can't wear hearing or eye protection because you wouldn't wear them everytime you go out either.

I have worn them when wearing jeans and when wearing shorts. If anyone complains, I tell them I have a bad knee. Which I do but a lot of it is to protect what knees I have left.
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Old May 8, 2002, 10:16 PM   #3
ryucasta
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My issue here isn’t really the kneepads it more and issue with how the IDPA organization is run. It just seems to me by their response that they have an unidentified number of unwritten rules. I truly never expected a response like that from them. After all they do collect dues and what do you get for those dues, a hat and a rulebook that’s not current or even complete. It’s funny how they charge the same as USPSA and yet they cant provide a website where your classifiers are posted or even a magazine like Front Sight which has a large contributor list.

I would have expected, better yet I would demand as a dues paying member a real rulebook and not this concept of rules buried in a 3-year-old issue of IDPA’s Tactical Journal.

Ayway thats my 2 cents
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Old May 9, 2002, 09:12 AM   #4
wakal
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What do you expect from a splinter group run by whiners who decided to take their make-believe ball and go play their own game instead of try to fix what they considered to be wrong with the "big" game? Printed rules where everyone can SEE them? Oh, my no...

As said here already, how many "shootouts" take place with empty brass littering the ground? Practicing real skills is one thing, forcing injuries to conform to some made-up wanna-be Warrior's idea of "tactical" is just stupid.



Alex

PS I shoot both sports (as well as CAS), but sure get tired of the blatent mismanagement of IDPA and the shameless huckstering of CAS. At least in IPSC you know exactly what you are getting...a bunch of rules lawyers and gamesters who ADMIT what they are doing


A
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Old May 9, 2002, 11:01 AM   #5
RickB
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Blatant mis-management of IDPA? For $30 you get a hat, a rulebook that is essentially updated on a quarterly basis (see Tactical Journal), and not much else; and that's the way I like it! No "Mission counts" or "high hit factors" or Section fees or dues, etc. I love IPSC, but to say that IDPA is mismanaged in comparison is stretching it. It is certainly not managed to the same extent!
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Old May 9, 2002, 11:31 AM   #6
ryucasta
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RickB,

So I take it then that you agree with the latency on updating the rulebook with regards to kneepads and any other unwritten rule. BTW, if we really want to keep the true tactical spirit, IDPA should also not require eye and ear protection since in real life you won’t be wearing those either.

But we all know that safety is important and that this is really a game since you are scored and timed and the BG’s don’t fire back. It’s my opinion that competitors should be allowed to take reasonable safety precautions like wearing Safety Glasses, Hearing Protection, and Knee Pads and even possibly elbow pads if the COF warrants it.
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Old May 9, 2002, 12:04 PM   #7
kbear38S
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I'm sick of all the gamers in IDPA wearing hearing protection. One of these days an IDPA shooter's going to get into a gun fight and they'll be so startled at the noise of their own gun, they'll end up getting killed.
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Old May 9, 2002, 03:58 PM   #8
RickB
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The official position of IDPA is that the match organizers should place padding where people are likely to kneel. This is not nearly as practical as letting people wear their own padding, but at least it has been addressed.
"Rulings" that are posted in the Tactical Journal are in themselves rules. While I don't care to lug around back-issues of the magazine in addition to my rule book, it is rather handy to have the updates/interpretations available quarterly.
Another thing to consider is that the relationship of the IDPA competitor to the SO is not the same as that of an IPSC shooter and an RO. The SO is more like a lifeguard to the RO's umpire. The SO should try to ensure that the shooter doesn't break any rules, rather than trying to catch the shooter in a violation. If I'm SOing a match, and I don't know the latest knee pad ruling, what's the harm? Even knowing that obvious kneepads are illegal, if a shooter with "bad knees" shows up to a match with pads, I'm going to let him/her wear them.
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Old May 10, 2002, 07:07 AM   #9
Billy Sparks
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This is a argument that will not die. Of course if we shoot in what we would be normally be wearing when we get into a armed confrontation I am going to look pretty silly standing on the line in underware and barefoot. Most of the time we would be confronted while at home, asleep.
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Old May 10, 2002, 07:35 AM   #10
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Billy Sparks

"Of course if we shoot in what we would be normally be wearing when we get into a armed confrontation I am going to look pretty silly standing on the line in underware and barefoot."

Every once in a while it takes a great comment to bring us back to reality! Thanks!

Whether or not people want to recognize it, IDPA is still a contest, set up and run by certain standards, rules, and guidance. It is a prepared and directed event, unlike a real gunfight.

To give credit to the IDPA organizers, it is a difficult path to balance a (hopefully?) reality-based event with the proper amount of rules to insure a safely-run and evenly conducted shoot.
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Old May 14, 2002, 10:45 AM   #11
Mayonaise
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ryucasta,

What exactly is your objective by trolling this issue across no less than 4 web forums? You seem to have an ax to grind.

Just curious.

Mark
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Old May 14, 2002, 11:45 AM   #12
ryucasta
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Mayonaise,

If you bothered to read the thread from its inception I quite clearly state that it had originally been posted elsewhere.

Ryucasta states:
“I originally posted this thread on the 1911 forum I'm also posting it here for informational purposes.”


You as an individual come across like a person who looks for fights for no apparent rhyme or reason and I’m basing this from all of your previous posting on Glock Talk.

Mayonaise states:

“Or better yet. Stay at home.”

This seems to be getting out of hand with you, it was my impression that in this country we can still express opinions and you can disagree with me but there is no need to get personal on a public forum. So I would greatly appreciate if you need to express a direct opinion at me do so by email so we can discuss it like adults offline.

BTW, I have no axe to grind with any organization or anyone for that matter, but apparently you do. It is simply not profitable for me since I see no ROI emanating from this.
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Old May 14, 2002, 12:41 PM   #13
Mayonaise
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Quote:
You as an individual come across like a person who looks for fights for no apparent rhyme or reason and I’m basing this from all of your previous posting on Glock Talk.

Mayonaise states:

“Or better yet. Stay at home.”

This seems to be getting out of hand with you, it was my impression that in this country we can still express opinions and you can disagree with me but there is no need to get personal on a public forum. So I would greatly appreciate if you need to express a direct opinion at me do so by email so we can discuss it like adults offline.

BTW, I have no axe to grind with any organization or anyone for that matter, but apparently you do. It is simply not profitable for me since I see no ROI emanating from this.
I don't mean to make it personal. That's not my intent. Perhaps I should have just asked "What's your agenda?" It appears to me that you have a problem with the rule or you are just unhappy that it hasn't made it into the rule book yet. Or maybe you're just trying to be informative. It just smells funny to me. It looks like a troll when it's spread over several web forums.

If you have problems with the BOD try addressing the BOD. If you don't get the response you like from the BOD. Find another sport Or better yet, stay home.

Mark
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Old May 14, 2002, 01:14 PM   #14
Ricky T
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ryucasta,
I think you are a shiat stirrer just like Mayonaise? Let me let you in on a secret. The BOD don't visit these forums, so they won't see yours or any others' desire to change the rules. They are aware though of complaints and slowly they will make changes in the rulebook or clarify existing ones. They are not hard to get information to, if you do a little search you can easily get their emails so you can contact them directly to express your opinion. But I just have this feeling that they'll file your email (if the get it) in the round file where it belongs.
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Old May 14, 2002, 09:16 PM   #15
John Forsyth
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I personally think knee pads should be ok'd as safety equipment. They have no effect whatsoever on skill or speed. I do not know of anyone who shoots faster with electronic hearing protection, but they seem to know what is going on better.

If someone showed up at my match wearing knee pads and said that they had bad knees, should I turn them away? No. We need to understand that IDPA is a game, and a serious fun game at that. If I was to have a situation that required me to fire my PDW, I am sure not going to have time to go get my hearing protection and glasses on. So what sence does it make to have someone wear eye and hearing protection but not let them protect their knees or elbows at a match that only simulates those situations? I do not get in twelve gunfights in 4 hours.

I would like to see some changes in the rules of IDPA. I have some that I am going to propose. Will they respond, I have no idea. They still have not answered my email or snail mail about moving 10mm into poodleshooter division nor anyone else's that I know of, and I am talking about a double digit number.
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Old May 14, 2002, 11:36 PM   #16
ryucasta
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Mayonaise,

In my career, I can recall a group of individuals that were similar to you in their thinking; they just couldn’t believe that some people would do things for the good of others. These individuals always see things in a negative light. But to your credit you did guess that my original intent was to be informative.

Mayonaise States:

“maybe you're just trying to be informative”

I had originally sent a letter to IDPA and their response also appears in the original thread. When I received that response I was flabbergasted that and organization like IDPA of which I am a dues paying member would respond in that manner. So I decided to post their response on various forums hoping that other IDPA members would see them and then write their own letter to the BOD asking them to update the rulebook. But I guess I was wrong in assuming that others would see it in that light.
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Scarface/Tony Montana Says:

Send me here. Send me there. This. That. Nothing you can do to me Harry, Castro didn’t do --- nothing...
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Old May 15, 2002, 12:11 AM   #17
ryucasta
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Ricky T,

After reading your response, I can tell that you failed to read the posting in detail. It’s like you did not succeed in noticing that I already had sent an email to the IDPA organization and that I also provided their written email response.

But then again what can I expect from and individual such as yourself who even though I have never met you in person your postings on Glock Talk tells me all that I need to know about you as an individual.

Ricky T states:
“Wait a minute, you apologized to some no name nicknamed masked man? And you wouldn't apologize to Dane? I have no use for you range Nazi.”

After having to haggle with individuals like you I have determined that its simply not worth my time or effort to be informative to my fellow shooters. If one tries to be informative the nay Sayers such as you, kick into high gear and will try anything from character assassination to god knows what to squash an opinion that they don’t agree with.

BTW, I will give you credit were credit is due. At least on this forum you do provide an email address and your not hiding behind the anonymity of the web in the same manner that you do on Glock Talk.
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Scarface/Tony Montana Says:

Send me here. Send me there. This. That. Nothing you can do to me Harry, Castro didn’t do --- nothing...
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Old May 15, 2002, 05:48 AM   #18
Ricky T
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Ryucasta,
Hiding? hardly. A bunch of people at TFL, GT, Pissysmith know who I am and have met me personally. I am a moderator at 1911 and can be reached on any forums by PM. My handle is an abbreviated version of my name.

BTW, how often do you shoot IDPA, USPSA, etc. ? What are your classifications? How have you contributed to promoting the sport in your area?

I am not against kneepads, neither is IDPA. If you haven't gotten it yet, you can wear soft kneepads under long pants. Also carpet pads are provided at all matches. What else do you want?
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Old May 15, 2002, 09:13 AM   #19
ryucasta
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Ricky T,

I've decided that I simply not wasting any more time with you and your comments. But if you ever come out to LA feel free to email me and I will invite you to either Norco, Pala, West End or SWPL for IPSC competition or if IDPA is your preference Prado, Apple Valley or Piru.

Because after all talk is cheap and I'm from Missouri.
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Send me here. Send me there. This. That. Nothing you can do to me Harry, Castro didn’t do --- nothing...
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