New Russian Break-Open .357 Mag

Kernel · June 3, 2001, 05:50 PM

From the Guns & Ammo web site.....

- Nurnberg Germany’s International Trade Fair for Hunting and Shooting Arms -

"Radically different is this top-break .357 Magnum revolver built by Russia’s Bail featuring a polymer frame."

Interesting ... good to see the Russians are keeping busy making civilian arms. First I've heard of a polymer frame revolver! I wonder what it weighs. -- Kernel

croyance · June 3, 2001, 08:10 PM

I like. I want.

Sigh...
That list of things to get keeps growing and growing.

Should have taken those offers 6 months ago so I could buy these things faster.

I always liked break top revolvers. Now tell me that the ejector throws the cases 20 feet away and that it takes S&W speedloaders.

Matt VDW · June 3, 2001, 10:37 PM

I'm glad to see that, but a little sad to know that the Russians are making American gunmakers eat their dust when it comes to innovative wheelgun designs.

Can we trade them 100,000 of our lawyers for 20 of their engineers?

orlando5 · June 4, 2001, 01:42 AM

Quote:

I'm glad to see that, but a little sad to know that the Russians are making American gunmakers eat their dust when it comes to innovative wheelgun designs.

I am sad to said that you're are right. American gun makers are preoccupied with 1911 for the past few decades that they forgotten to innovate.

Hal · June 4, 2001, 05:42 AM

Think about this for a second. If a polymer frame revolver was do-able, don'tcha think S&*, Colt or Taurus would have at least done one in .22LR by now?
For the time being, I think this design is more gimmick than anything else.

BAD_KARMA · June 4, 2001, 08:00 AM

American gun makers are stagnet and have been for years. It looks like this gun is made by Bikal (sp) they are a very large producer of guns. They make very respectable shotguns for a very reasonable price.

It appears to me that American gun makers cannot afford to step out of the box. By the time they design a new gun they cannot afford to sell it cheap enough to get people to try it. Every time Colt made something that was not single action or a Python they got hammered. They had the very inovative 2000 model. This gun was ergonomic lightweight and hi-cap. Plus you could make it a short barrel carry piece by simply changing the barrel and front end bushing. Smacked down becuase it was double action only.

Matt VDW · June 4, 2001, 08:09 AM

Quote:

If a polymer frame revolver was do-able, don'tcha think S&*, Colt or Taurus would have at least done one in .22LR by now?

American gun makers thought that polymer frame pistols were "gimmicky" until Glock took the police market away from them.

June 4, 2001, 01:19 PM

Hey...

This reminds me of a thread a looong time ago about top break revolvers...I love the concept but I remember being told that that design is too weak to handle the type of pressures that the magnums generate...does this mean that polymers can take it and metals won't...

Also, I completely agree with Matt...I remember when the Glock hit and all the american makers were crying about how bad the concept was...I dare anyone here to point to an american maker now that doesn't have at least one poly pistol...I dare ya...

Personally I think the big time revolver companies never tried to make one because of the fear that the traditionalists would make too much noise...

G

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...?threadid=7043

this is that thread I was talking about...

[Edited by DeakonG on 06-04-2001 at 01:41 PM]

bullfrog99 · June 4, 2001, 11:15 PM

that's the most bueatyful thing i've ever seen.
Please, oh powers that be, tell me they'll import them some day!

orlando5 · June 5, 2001, 01:14 AM

I would like to get one myself. I like the design.

Hal · June 5, 2001, 06:24 AM

From Dictionary.com
gim·mick (gmk)
n.

1.)A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus.
2.)An innovative or unusual mechanical contrivance; a gadget.(emphasis mine)

I still believe this is a gimmick as defined above. Nothing's wrong with being a gimmick, it just takes a different set of goals.

Tamara · June 5, 2001, 08:26 AM

...we'd find a relatively conventional steel frame beneath that polymer, probably with a Dan-Wessonesque single attachment point for the grips.

scoops · June 5, 2001, 08:30 AM

im suprise the other gun co. havent used polamers for revolvers like they have for auto pistol.those hi doller alloys are cool and all but 600 bucks for a snubie is too hi for me.

Joe Demko · June 5, 2001, 09:21 AM

Not having read the article, I'll go out on a limb here and conjecture that only the grip portion of the frame is polymer. The half that has the barrel and is exposed to powder gas is metal. Regardless, I want one, too. Legally, I can't see why it wouldn't be importable. Look at the tons of revolvers brought in from Italy.

revolvergeek · June 5, 2001, 12:18 PM

"They had the very inovative 2000 model. This gun was ergonomic lightweight and hi-cap. Plus you could make it a short barrel carry piece by simply changing the barrel and front end bushing. Smacked down becuase it was double action only."

Uh.. actually every one i ever saw of these while working at two different gun stores over the span of 8 years was total CRAP. The would not function. Felt great in the hand, easy to rack the slide, trigger was wierd but ok, but they would not function.

We had a customer who wanted one of the presentation grade 2000s, with a steel frame and wooden grips. He changed his mind after the first four that we got could not finish a single magazine.

The only other gun that i ever saw that consistently was this bad was the Lorcin .380.

As for the new Russian top-break .357, that is COOL!!! I want on of those BAD. Now if they would make one in .45 acp that uses regular moon clips............

BAD_KARMA · June 5, 2001, 01:16 PM

The 2 colt 2000's I own have gone thru 1500 rds just fine. They are a little complicated to take apart and put togther. mis-assembly caused the problems with the only one I have ever come into contact with that would not shoot.

BAD_KARMA · June 5, 2001, 01:23 PM

This is the responce I just got from EAA Corp when I emailed them and asked if they planned to import this revolver. Damn.

Zander · June 5, 2001, 01:32 PM

"Russia’s Bail..." -- Kernel

Bet that's 'Baikal'. They make good guns at inexpensive prices.

It looks like the polymer joins steel which is the "bottom strap". I see no reason why this wouldn't work, especially with steel inserts for recoil shield, etc.

But shooting hot .357 Mag loads in a top-break?

Hmmm...I'd have to be made a believer.

"Can we trade them 100,000 of our lawyers for 20 of their engineers?" -- Matt VDW

Do you think that's fair? To the Russians, I mean. LOL!

orlando5 · June 5, 2001, 10:55 PM

Gimmick or not they are trying something new and that the reason why foreign gun companies took over the US market. They aren't afraid to fail.

Hal · June 6, 2001, 06:54 AM

Like I said in another Baikal thread, innovative or not, gimmick or not, boldly go where other mfgs fear to tread or not, when it comes to Baikal, the line forms in front of me.

jimmy · June 6, 2001, 08:25 AM

I gather that Baikal is the trade name used by the Izhevsk Mechanical Works. FWIW, I have a Nagant revolver made by them in 1944. Fifty-seven years old and still smokin'!

Kernel · June 6, 2001, 04:02 PM

Da! Russian guns built strong... like tractor.

-- Kernel

June 6, 2001, 05:08 PM

Seems that a polymer wheelgun would be nice and cool to the touch in a hot car.

Salt · March 30, 2002, 09:36 PM

I hope that H&R or some other American gun manufacturer would get around to making a decent top-break revolver.

It would be nice too if the Bush administration would allow these Baikal top-break revolvers to be imported.

RogerC · March 31, 2002, 12:10 AM

I bet 4 or 5 boxes of 158 grain full power loads would knock it out of whack. Top break design cannot be as strong as full frame around the cylinder.

I hope Ivan offers a decent warranty.

June 4, 2001, 05:42 AM	#5
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,564	Thanks but no thanks Think about this for a second. If a polymer frame revolver was do-able, don'tcha think S&*, Colt or Taurus would have at least done one in .22LR by now? For the time being, I think this design is more gimmick than anything else.

June 5, 2001, 06:24 AM	#11
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,564	Glocks were a gimmck From Dictionary.com gim·mick (gmk) n. 1.)A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus. 2.)An innovative or unusual mechanical contrivance; a gadget.(emphasis mine) I still believe this is a gimmick as defined above. Nothing's wrong with being a gimmick, it just takes a different set of goals.

June 5, 2001, 08:26 AM	#12
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	I believe that... ...we'd find a relatively conventional steel frame beneath that polymer, probably with a Dan-Wessonesque single attachment point for the grips. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

June 5, 2001, 01:23 PM	#17
BAD_KARMA Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2000 Posts: 171	NOT ON THE ANNEX LIST SO NOT IMPORTABLE FOR USA This is the responce I just got from EAA Corp when I emailed them and asked if they planned to import this revolver. Damn.

June 3, 2001, 05:50 PM	#1
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	From the Guns & Ammo web site..... - Nurnberg Germany’s International Trade Fair for Hunting and Shooting Arms - "Radically different is this top-break .357 Magnum revolver built by Russia’s Bail featuring a polymer frame." Interesting ... good to see the Russians are keeping busy making civilian arms. First I've heard of a polymer frame revolver! I wonder what it weighs. -- Kernel

June 3, 2001, 08:10 PM	#2
croyance Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2001 Posts: 3,604	I like. I want. Sigh... That list of things to get keeps growing and growing. Should have taken those offers 6 months ago so I could buy these things faster. I always liked break top revolvers. Now tell me that the ejector throws the cases 20 feet away and that it takes S&W speedloaders.

June 3, 2001, 10:37 PM	#3
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 1999 Posts: 1,315	I'm glad to see that, but a little sad to know that the Russians are making American gunmakers eat their dust when it comes to innovative wheelgun designs. Can we trade them 100,000 of our lawyers for 20 of their engineers?

June 4, 2001, 08:00 AM	#6
BAD_KARMA Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2000 Posts: 171	American gun makers are stagnet and have been for years. It looks like this gun is made by Bikal (sp) they are a very large producer of guns. They make very respectable shotguns for a very reasonable price. It appears to me that American gun makers cannot afford to step out of the box. By the time they design a new gun they cannot afford to sell it cheap enough to get people to try it. Every time Colt made something that was not single action or a Python they got hammered. They had the very inovative 2000 model. This gun was ergonomic lightweight and hi-cap. Plus you could make it a short barrel carry piece by simply changing the barrel and front end bushing. Smacked down becuase it was double action only.

June 4, 2001, 01:19 PM	#8
DeakonG Guest Posts: n/a	Hey... This reminds me of a thread a looong time ago about top break revolvers...I love the concept but I remember being told that that design is too weak to handle the type of pressures that the magnums generate...does this mean that polymers can take it and metals won't... Also, I completely agree with Matt...I remember when the Glock hit and all the american makers were crying about how bad the concept was...I dare anyone here to point to an american maker now that doesn't have at least one poly pistol...I dare ya... Personally I think the big time revolver companies never tried to make one because of the fear that the traditionalists would make too much noise... G http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...?threadid=7043 this is that thread I was talking about... [Edited by DeakonG on 06-04-2001 at 01:41 PM]

June 4, 2001, 11:15 PM	#9
bullfrog99 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: Southeast Michigan Posts: 811	that's the most bueatyful thing i've ever seen. Please, oh powers that be, tell me they'll import them some day!

June 5, 2001, 01:14 AM	#10
orlando5 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere in wonderland. Posts: 699	I would like to get one myself. I like the design.

June 5, 2001, 08:30 AM	#13
scoops Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2000 Posts: 414	im suprise the other gun co. havent used polamers for revolvers like they have for auto pistol.those hi doller alloys are cool and all but 600 bucks for a snubie is too hi for me.

June 5, 2001, 09:21 AM	#14
Joe Demko Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 1,143	Not having read the article, I'll go out on a limb here and conjecture that only the grip portion of the frame is polymer. The half that has the barrel and is exposed to powder gas is metal. Regardless, I want one, too. Legally, I can't see why it wouldn't be importable. Look at the tons of revolvers brought in from Italy.

June 5, 2001, 12:18 PM	#15
revolvergeek Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2001 Posts: 289	"They had the very inovative 2000 model. This gun was ergonomic lightweight and hi-cap. Plus you could make it a short barrel carry piece by simply changing the barrel and front end bushing. Smacked down becuase it was double action only." Uh.. actually every one i ever saw of these while working at two different gun stores over the span of 8 years was total CRAP. The would not function. Felt great in the hand, easy to rack the slide, trigger was wierd but ok, but they would not function. We had a customer who wanted one of the presentation grade 2000s, with a steel frame and wooden grips. He changed his mind after the first four that we got could not finish a single magazine. The only other gun that i ever saw that consistently was this bad was the Lorcin .380. As for the new Russian top-break .357, that is COOL!!! I want on of those BAD. Now if they would make one in .45 acp that uses regular moon clips............

June 5, 2001, 01:16 PM	#16
BAD_KARMA Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2000 Posts: 171	The 2 colt 2000's I own have gone thru 1500 rds just fine. They are a little complicated to take apart and put togther. mis-assembly caused the problems with the only one I have ever come into contact with that would not shoot.

June 5, 2001, 01:32 PM	#18
Zander Junior member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Middle and East Tennessee, USA Posts: 2,059	"Russia’s Bail..." -- Kernel Bet that's 'Baikal'. They make good guns at inexpensive prices. It looks like the polymer joins steel which is the "bottom strap". I see no reason why this wouldn't work, especially with steel inserts for recoil shield, etc. But shooting hot .357 Mag loads in a top-break? Hmmm...I'd have to be made a believer. "Can we trade them 100,000 of our lawyers for 20 of their engineers?" -- Matt VDW Do you think that's fair? To the Russians, I mean. LOL!

June 5, 2001, 10:55 PM	#19
orlando5 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere in wonderland. Posts: 699	Gimmick or not they are trying something new and that the reason why foreign gun companies took over the US market. They aren't afraid to fail.

June 6, 2001, 06:54 AM	#20
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,564	Like I said in another Baikal thread, innovative or not, gimmick or not, boldly go where other mfgs fear to tread or not, when it comes to Baikal, the line forms in front of me.

June 6, 2001, 08:25 AM	#21
jimmy Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 1,796	I gather that Baikal is the trade name used by the Izhevsk Mechanical Works. FWIW, I have a Nagant revolver made by them in 1944. Fifty-seven years old and still smokin'!

June 6, 2001, 04:02 PM	#22
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	Da! Russian guns built strong... like tractor. -- Kernel

June 6, 2001, 05:08 PM	#23
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	Seems that a polymer wheelgun would be nice and cool to the touch in a hot car.

March 30, 2002, 09:36 PM	#24
Salt Junior member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Posts: 673	I hope that H&R or some other American gun manufacturer would get around to making a decent top-break revolver. It would be nice too if the Bush administration would allow these Baikal top-break revolvers to be imported.

March 31, 2002, 12:10 AM	#25
RogerC Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: Above the fog, and below the snow. Posts: 667	I bet 4 or 5 boxes of 158 grain full power loads would knock it out of whack. Top break design cannot be as strong as full frame around the cylinder. I hope Ivan offers a decent warranty.