Did some ballistics testing this weekend.

[Playboypenguin]

This weekend I had the chance to do some makeshift tests. I took my .380acp PPK, my 9mm Glock G26, my .357sig P2000SK, my .40S&W MK40, and my .357mag/.38spl S&W m60. We did not tdo anything too scientific. We simple slaughtered a bunch of old phone books (who uses phonebooks these days anyway) that were on their way to the recycling area at the dump.

I am not an expert at this but we did our best to keep the conditions fair and the results unbiased. The worst part is we did not have all the ammo weights at our disposal so we had to use what we had.

I forgot to charge the battery in my camera so I did not manage to get any pictures. I also did not take anything to write detailed notes. Therefore we are going to try and do it again this coming weekend and be a little better prepared this time. What little notes I did take (besides penetration) are not available to me now so I will just sum up the results.

Ammo used:
.380acp - 90gr Gold Dot GDHP
9mm - 115gr Gold Dot JHP
.357sig - 125gr Gold Dot GDHP
.40S&W - 180gr Winchester JHP
.38spl - 110gr Winchester HP
.357mag - 110gr Winchester JHP

Results:
(penetration is based on comparison info on the web on how to covert paper penetration to Gel penetration)

(expension is simply rated in POOR=did not always expand and never fully, FAIR=usually expanded partially but never fully, GOOD=always expanded partially and sometimes fully, VERY GOOD=Always expanded usually fully, and EXCELLENT=always expanded fully)

(recoil is stated on a 1-10 scale with 1 being very mild and 10 being abusive)

.380acp
Average penetration: 11.75" - Average Expansion: Fair - Recoil: 5

.38spl
Average penetration: 12.00" - Average Expansion: Very Good - Recoil: 4

9mm
Average penetration: 12.50" - Average Expansion: Good - Recoil: 5

.40S&W
Average penetration: 14.00" - Average Expansion: Very Good - Recoil: 7

.357sig
Average penetration: 14.75" - Average Expansion: Very Good - Recoil: 6

.357mag
Average penetration: 15.00" - Average Expansion: Excellent - Recoil: 9

These results are by no means scientific. They are done by two goobers with too much time on their hand and a whole lot of phonebooks. The calculations were done based on the average conversion we found on the net since there was more than one formula. Next time we will take calipers and gloves to measure bullet expansion. we might even break down and buy some gel mix.

[The Lovemaster]

That's funny you post this - there has been a large pile of new yet unclaimed phone books outside my office that scream "take us with you and shoot us" every time I walk by them!

Good info you posted and seems to back up what one would intuitively think.

[wnycollector]

nice post Playboypenguin. If I find some "extra" phone books I might add .45acp (230gr fmj, +P 200gr & 230gr JHP and 185gr jhp) tests.

[Keltyke]

Good test. True - not scientific, but perfect for comparing one round against another. And you used basic ammo that's readily available.

[Moe Howard]

Yeah. I have gathered up several old phone books that I think are plotting on me. May be time for another yellow book hunting trip.

[sw_florida]

If I lived in an area where I could do fun ballistic testing with my 9mm and my .357 magnum, I'd do it. The gun range I go to normally wouldn't let me, I'm sure.

Nice post!

[Van55]

Why didn't you shoot a .45?

[Dusty Rivers]

Don't you need to have the same grains to do a comparison of recoil and penetration? Most of the posts usually have one at 180gr and another at Gr or something similar. That doesn't seems like apples to apples. Did I miss something?

Also what range on the penetration? Was it the white pages or the yellow, or government section. I hear that those sections are really hard to penetrate

[Playboypenguin]

Don't you need to have the same grains to do a comparison of recoil and penetration? Most of the posts usually have one at 180gr and another at Gr or something similar. That doesn't seems like apples to apples. Did I miss something?

You really are not going to be able to do fair comparisons regarding ballistics of carry weapons of different calibers and stick to the same bullet weights. Each caliber has a different optimal carry load and most are not even available in the same weight.

Also what range on the penetration? Was it the white pages or the yellow, or government section. I hear that those sections are really hard to penetrate

They were standard white pages that we "borrowed" from the city recycling station.

[Playboypenguin]

Why didn't you shoot a .45?

I was comparing bullets of similar size diameter from different platforms. I only added the .40S&W because a lot of people that do not like the .357sig always use the argument that the .40S&W is a better and comparable round.

[OldShooter]

I appreciate your fine work.

I feel pretty good about the .380 I carry.
I don't see any need to carry a .357 mag unless I need to drill a big bear.

[Playboypenguin]

I feel pretty good about the .380 I carry.
I don't see any need to carry a .357 mag unless I need to drill a big bear.

Based on how well the .380 dispatched those phone books, I would have no issue with carrying it for self defense.

[mavracer]

hey throw another good one in there and you can carry somthin different every day of the week and let Mr. BG choose what you shoot him with

[KyJim]

Well, I was going to ask about why you ignored the powerful .25 acp until I got to the post where you explained you were trying to compare bullets of similar diameter.

I also noticed a significant flaw in your testing -- you only used white pages. Everyone knows that you have to use a combination of 60% white pages and 40% yellow pages to get truly accurate results.

[Bill DeShivs]

Thanks for the reading. There are many here that will never get the chance to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Your test gives them something to think about.
And, now I know what to expect if I have to shoot at someone wearing phonebook body armor! ;^)

[Playboypenguin]

I also noticed a significant flaw in your testing -- you only used white pages. Everyone knows that you have to use a combination of 60% white pages and 40% yellow pages to get truly accurate results.

We had yellow pages also but the only conversions I could find that seemed credible only dealt with white pages.

[hihosilver]

Pb How far from the phonebooks were you shooting? Was it point blank? I dont know if there is a rule of thumb on that.

[Rampant_Colt]

were the phonebooks soaking wet?
why didn't you post the recovered diameters?

[Playboypenguin]

Pb How far from the phonebooks were you shooting? Was it point blank? I dont know if there is a rule of thumb on that.

The guns were held in a handgun rest about eight feet from the books.

were the phonebooks soaking wet?
why didn't you post the recovered diameters?

Yes, the books were soaked down...but only because that is how the references I found did theirs.

I did not have calipers to measure them and did not particularly want to handle the spent bullets without gloves. Like I said, maybe next time.

[Firepower!]

Yep...380 seems like a good candidate for carrying on daily basis. I am sure going to try locating one here in Pakistan. Kinda hard to find variety besides, 9mm, 45, 44, 357, 9x18, 32, 22, 38/38spl, 7.63 mauser, and rarely 40 and 380.

Oh and old 455 British is plenty but cheap revolver with expensive bullets.

I dont reload so get really ripped off buying bullets here i.e. 44 mag serbian one bullet is for roughly 5.5$!

[Rampant_Colt]

LoL - why didn't you want to handle the recovered bullets?
I have hundreds of recovered bullets that i frequently handle and can assure you they won't cause any harm. Just be sure to thoroughly wash your hands afterwards

I prefer to use newspaper that's been soaking overnight. I accumulate newspaper quickly, and it works very well for bullet testing. Mounted in steel or plastic milk crates works well for wetpack testing because it allows the water to drain from the bottom and for recovering the slug. Wetpack is very heavy and dirty

please check out these links:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/wetpak.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/E...enetration.htm


some cool info here as well:

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

[ISC]

I'm surprised that a 9mm would penetrate more than a .38 sp. .38s have so much larger case volume It seems like they should have much greater muzzle energy. I'd be curious what kind of bullets were in each round. were they all similar or was it a mix of JHP FMJ and wadcutter?

[Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted by ISC

I'm surprised that a 9mm would penetrate more than a .38 sp. .38s have so much larger case volume It seems like they should have much greater muzzle energy. I'd be curious what kind of bullets were in each round. were they all similar or was it a mix of JHP FMJ and wadcutter?

Case volume has nothing to do with wound potential or penetration. Bullet construction, velocity, and your target determines penetration depth

Originally Posted by playboypenguin

Ammo used:
.380acp - 90gr Gold Dot GDHP
9mm - 115gr Gold Dot JHP
.357sig - 125gr Gold Dot GDHP
.40S&W - 180gr Winchester JHP
.38spl - 110gr Winchester HP
.357mag - 110gr Winchester JHP

[ISC]

I meant that a larger case volume means that a larger volume of powder could be loaded. That doesn't mean that more powder is in every .38 round than in every 9mm round, but it makes sense to me for the typical .38 to be loaded hotter than a typical 9mm. I haven't looked up the load data for muzzle velocity, but I'm assuming that some loadings would be hotter than others for each caliber.

[Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted by ISC

I meant that a larger case volume means that a larger volume of powder could be loaded. That doesn't mean that more powder is in every .38 round than in every 9mm round, but it makes sense to me for the typical .38 to be loaded hotter than a typical 9mm. I haven't looked up the load data for muzzle velocity, but I'm assuming that some loadings would be hotter than others for each caliber.

Before the .357 Magnum was introduced, they were loading the .38 Special with a load developed for the S&W .38-44 frame, which was a heavy-duty, beefed-up revolver for the .38-44 cartridge, which was pushing a 158gr bullet to over 1200 fps. Chronographs at the time were primitive and inaccurate, with lots of room for errors. They would be considered a bit over +P+ nowadays.

My point is that the .38 Special has the potential to be loaded more powerful than the 9mm, but only in .357 Magnum-chambered handguns, or suitable firearms. Generally speaking, a .38 is slightly lower [as factory loaded] powered than the 9mm

In June of 1988, Shooting Times dedicated its monthly issue to the memory of Skeeter Skelton. In it was an unpublished article that he had written in the mid 1960s, and was discovered by his wife shortly after his death. It was entitled, "My Friend, The .357". In it he wrote about the history of the cartridge, and how it was his experience that the .357 was an excellent hunting cartridge. His favorite load was the Lyman 358156 gascheck bullet, designed by Ray Thompson, over 13.5 grains of 2400. He listed the muzzle velocity as 1200 fps. Coincidentily, this was the same loading that he use to put in a Remington .38 Special case because it had a lower crimping groove in it. Skeeter also listed three different categories (Light, Medium, and Heavy), of his favorite handloads.
He wrote: "The first two sections, light loads and medium loads, can be put up in .38 Special or .357 cases. I generally load these up in .38 Special cases so they can be readily identified and also because .38 brass is cheaper. The third section, heavy loads, should be assembled in sound, clean .357 cases. While not each is a maximun load, they perform better than any combinations of the same bullet and powder that I have tried."
One of his favorite light loads, using the Lyman bullet, was over 5.3 grains of Unique, giving it a muzzle velocity of 900 fps. Again with the Lyman gascheck bullet, he loaded it with 15.0 grains of 2400, for 1450 fps, in the heavy load section. At the end of the article, Skeeter summed it all up by writing: "If I had to choose just one gun to side me for the rest of my life, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun, I would select a .357 Magnum revolver." Pretty much says it all.