1911 Frame to slide fit posts.....

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 05:02 PM

I have a question for all 1911 shooters.... Why is it that every time someone gets a new 1911 they feel the need to post a pic of the rear of the gun and talk about the frame to slide fit...

People crow about the tightness of the fit.... Recently it has been the Dan Wesson CBOB which has been featured on every single thread. People chime in and ohhhh and ahhhh as if it is some huge feat of engineering and that it proves they bought a good gun......

People who really know 1911s know that the frame to slide fit is not that big of a factor and in some opinions is a bad thing to have on combat or defense 1911.

Who started this myth and why is it almost always perpetuated?

Sturmgewehre · January 20, 2009, 05:19 PM

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Can you post some examples?

dmwphoto · January 20, 2009, 05:21 PM

beautiful view of a TRP there STurmgewehre

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 05:27 PM

Perfect continuing the misinformation.........

No I am serious.... Why does everyone do this and give the impression that a slide to frame fit is what to look for in a 1911.

Sturmgewehre · January 20, 2009, 05:32 PM

I've said for a long time that over all accuracy has very little to do with slide to frame fit.

What most people, myself included, are showcasing in such shots is the overall finish of the pistol.

Poorly assembled 1911's have slide over-hang in the rear, the extractors aren't flush and they clock. There will be uneven gaps in the fit around the slide rails... things like that.

A 1911 typically needs a little craftsmanship TLC to look top notch.

The accuracy comes from things pictures can't capture. Most of that is in the fit of the top-end (barrel to slide, barrel to bushing, barrel/lug to frame, etc.). But that's another discussion.

Rob96 · January 20, 2009, 05:34 PM

I believe he is talking "tight" as in Les Baer tight. Slide to frame fit accounts for maybe 5% of the guns accuracy. Barrel to slide fit is where it counts.

doctruptwn · January 20, 2009, 05:38 PM

Your right it is not exactly a desired trait in a combat pistol, But over the years it has become one of those quality things because 1. There have been some pretty shabby frame and slide fits in factory pistols. 2. It was generally a dead giveaway to a arsenal refinish pistol. Where the arsenal would dis assemble an entire crate of pistols and then put them back together, not using the same parts from the same pistol.

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 05:44 PM

I agree with what most of you are saying but I think that the devil is in the details... I see people all the time talking about the slide to frame fit but no one ever mentions barrel lock up.... which IMHO determines if a 1911 is going to be accurate or not.

I guess I am asking because lately I have seen the slide to frame pics being used as justification for I got a good one.....

It does help to signal quality finishing of a gun but if it is too tight it is problem with any gun that is going to be used as a defense pistol IMHO...

If we are talking about a range toy for bulleye that is a different issue but I keep seeing it with the DW CBOB which I consider a defense pistol....

I guess I just think the smarter more knowledgeable members are perpetuating a myth to newer 1911 shooters and TFL membership in general when they focus so much on what is really a minor detail.

Sturmgewehre · January 20, 2009, 05:48 PM

There are threads around here where I go toe to toe with PBP and others about what constitutes an accurate 1911.

I believe a 1911 should have a little "slop" in the slide to frame fit department. I won't rehash all of those discussions here. Just trust that we've vetted this issue in great detail.

Sturmgewehre · January 20, 2009, 05:50 PM

Do you think this is a minor detail?

Officer's Match · January 20, 2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

beautiful view of a TRP there STurmgewehre

It's probably the Professional, isn't it?

Sturmgewehre · January 20, 2009, 05:55 PM

It's my Custom Shop Kimber. I paid extra for Dennis to give it some TLC.

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 05:55 PM

That is certainly an issue and you know it....

What I am talking about is this..... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=329216

In this thread the OP did a nice report but had to go back and take pictures of the frame to prove he got a good one......

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 05:59 PM

Don't get me wrong I own a CBOB and think it is a nice gun.... I also have a Les Baer which it tighter than my a$$ and those of you like, Sturmgewehre who know my style, know just how tight that is......

but even on that Baer what makes it one hell of a 1911 has very little to do with the frame to slide fit.

dmwphoto · January 20, 2009, 06:15 PM

just so you know where my guess was based on....

I agree with the OP's concept but I really am a nut for fit and finish on my 45's

see what I mean on this one

Ridgerunner665 · January 20, 2009, 06:22 PM

Did somebody say "Les Baer tight"...

Baer stainless Stinger...12,000 rounds

The reason slide to frame fit matters is simple...if a company cannot properly fit a slide to a frame, how do you epect them to be able to fit a bushing to a slide and then fit the bushing and slide to the barrel.

Tight fit 1911's run just fine...there are 2 schools of thought here..one is that a loose gun is more reliable because there is room for debris in the rails (I know for a fact that debris in the rails causes premature wear on a hard used gun)

The other school of thought is the one I agree with...its that a tight fit pushes the debris out of the rails...just as reliable without the premature wear.

kristop64089 · January 20, 2009, 06:29 PM

I agree with Rella scout here. While I do enjoy a beautiful gun, where all the parts fit nice and tight, most of those are aesthetic attributes.

I do see the mis-information construed. I think a lot of it is naivety. Some of it, I believe is pride, some of it may be people looking for affirmation. It's up to those in the "know" to set the record straight, and teach about barrel lock up, and the mechanics of said firearm. I bet there are many shooters here(and elsewhere) that have no idea what a locking block, or lug is, and are probably to ashamed to ask.

All ya can hope, is that your written word is understood.

Ridgerunner665 · January 20, 2009, 06:32 PM

Locking block...thats what keeps breaking in my Beretta 96 Vertec. (2 of them before I designated it a "safe queen"...maybe someday it will be worth something to a collector since Beretta didn't offer them for very long)

Jason_G · January 20, 2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

In this thread the OP did a nice report but had to go back and take pictures of the frame to prove he got a good one......

I would be the OP, there rellascout, and personally find your comment quite rude, as you are putting words in my mouth.

The reason I posted the pic is exactly as Sturmgewehre has already stated. It is impossible to show how tightly a bushing or barrel lugs are in a photo. At least for me.

The picture was just to show an example of the attention to detail that the folks at Dan Wesson show in their pistols. I never once said that the pistol is accurate because of the slide to frame fit. So this "had to go back and take pictures of the frame to prove he got a good one...... " is all you.

Jason

dmwphoto · January 20, 2009, 08:32 PM

Jason I thought the link to your thread odd as well. You were clearly speaking to detail and quality. Nice gun BTW!

rellascout · January 20, 2009, 08:39 PM

Look at the thread you need had to make sure you got a shot of the slide to frame.... I stated you did a nice report but found it odd that you felt the need to go back and take pictures to show the frame to slide fit.... It is a perfect example of someone putting way too much emphasis on this one part of a 1911 fit and finish.... Then you and other people talked about how it demonstrated what a perfect 1911 you had bought.....

If you don't like the critic that fine but it is clear you are enamored with that fit......

I think its funny you were so proud of it you had to post it on two sites.... and you are defending it on both....... Jason take a chill pill.... I did not call you ugly I disagree with your post..... Is that not the point of this forum? The exchange of opinions and information? I guess not... I guess I should have just said nice pistol.......

Whatever.......

rcinma · January 20, 2009, 08:47 PM

This is pre-CZ DW Guardian Deuce (SN# < 100) after several years and 3000+ rounds:

**Shane Tuttle** · January 20, 2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

I have a question for all 1911 shooters.... Why is it that every time someone gets a new 1911 they feel the need to post a pic of the rear of the gun and talk about the frame to slide fit...

1. I think the rear section of the 1911 has several factors at the same time regarding fitment compared to the front for instance. Instead of posting 12 pics of different views of the gun, 1 pic at the back tells the overall story (most of the time) of the care that went in producing the gun.

2. It's a good avenue to show fellow gunowners what they earned recently. Just because you buy a new car that's mass produced and another friend may have a similar model, wouldn't you still want to have your buddies to come over so you can show it off and lift the hood?

Where's the wrong in that?

3. Maybe the pride and care that a business takes in producing a top notch firearm spreads to the buyer. I can appreciate my Springer Loaded. It's a great middle of the road production 1911. But, I'm always in AWE when I handle a Les Baer or a Wilson Combat...

Quote:

People crow about the tightness of the fit.... Recently it has been the Dan Wesson CBOB which has been featured on every single thread. People chime in and ohhhh and ahhhh as if it is some huge feat of engineering and that it proves they bought a good gun......

See above...

Quote:

People who really know 1911s know that the frame to slide fit is not that big of a factor and in some opinions is a bad thing to have on combat or defense 1911.
Who started this myth and why is it almost always perpetuated?

I don't think it's a myth. Les Baer makes a quality 1911 that's tight as all get out and makes a dang good living selling them for combat or defensive purposes. It's all about doing it right.

I don't see it perpetuated as the main focus on reliability or accuracy. Arguably, it does make a difference to some degree. How much is a heated debate that will probably be resolved right after everybody agrees to disagree on a Glock vs. World thread.

Delaware_Dan · January 20, 2009, 08:49 PM

I guess not everyone appriciates attention to detail.

Jason_G · January 20, 2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Look at the thread you need had to make sure you got a shot of the slide to frame.... Then you and other people talked about how it deomstrated what a perfect 1911 you had bought.....

If you don't like the critic that fine but it is clear you are enamored with that fit......

I am enamored with the fit of everything in the pistol. As everyone has already stated, the slide to frame fit is just the easiest to photograph

.
I never once said that the slide to frame fit is what makes an accurate 1911. Not one single time. N-e-v-e-r. That is you putting words in my mouth, and IMO, makes this whole thread about as pointless as it can be.
The reason I posted the pic of the slide to frame fit was to show how well mated they were, and to show that the sharp corners had been lapped off at the factory, as in the past there were a small number of DW pistols that galled because this was not done.
Maybe you are reading into what other folks might have posted, I don't know. But I never once said that the slide to frame fit is what determines accuracy, so I would very much appreciate it if you would stop singling me out with this nonsense, as you now have this garbage posted about me on two forums.

Thanks,
Jason

January 20, 2009, 05:02 PM	#1
rellascout Junior member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Posts: 2,435	1911 Frame to slide fit posts..... I have a question for all 1911 shooters.... Why is it that every time someone gets a new 1911 they feel the need to post a pic of the rear of the gun and talk about the frame to slide fit... People crow about the tightness of the fit.... Recently it has been the Dan Wesson CBOB which has been featured on every single thread. People chime in and ohhhh and ahhhh as if it is some huge feat of engineering and that it proves they bought a good gun...... People who really know 1911s know that the frame to slide fit is not that big of a factor and in some opinions is a bad thing to have on combat or defense 1911. Who started this myth and why is it almost always perpetuated? Last edited by rellascout; January 20, 2009 at 05:16 PM.

January 20, 2009, 05:19 PM	#2
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Can you post some examples? __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

January 20, 2009, 05:32 PM	#5
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	I've said for a long time that over all accuracy has very little to do with slide to frame fit. What most people, myself included, are showcasing in such shots is the overall finish of the pistol. Poorly assembled 1911's have slide over-hang in the rear, the extractors aren't flush and they clock. There will be uneven gaps in the fit around the slide rails... things like that. A 1911 typically needs a little craftsmanship TLC to look top notch. The accuracy comes from things pictures can't capture. Most of that is in the fit of the top-end (barrel to slide, barrel to bushing, barrel/lug to frame, etc.). But that's another discussion. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

January 20, 2009, 05:48 PM	#9
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	There are threads around here where I go toe to toe with PBP and others about what constitutes an accurate 1911. I believe a 1911 should have a little "slop" in the slide to frame fit department. I won't rehash all of those discussions here. Just trust that we've vetted this issue in great detail. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia Last edited by Sturmgewehre; January 20, 2009 at 08:28 PM.

January 20, 2009, 05:50 PM	#10
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	Do you think this is a minor detail? __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

January 20, 2009, 05:21 PM	#3
dmwphoto Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 96	beautiful view of a TRP there STurmgewehre

January 20, 2009, 05:27 PM	#4
rellascout Junior member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Posts: 2,435	Perfect continuing the misinformation......... No I am serious.... Why does everyone do this and give the impression that a slide to frame fit is what to look for in a 1911.

January 20, 2009, 05:34 PM	#6
Rob96 Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 1999 Location: Allentown,PA Posts: 1,969	I believe he is talking "tight" as in Les Baer tight. Slide to frame fit accounts for maybe 5% of the guns accuracy. Barrel to slide fit is where it counts.

January 20, 2009, 05:38 PM	#7
doctruptwn Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 197	Your right it is not exactly a desired trait in a combat pistol, But over the years it has become one of those quality things because 1. There have been some pretty shabby frame and slide fits in factory pistols. 2. It was generally a dead giveaway to a arsenal refinish pistol. Where the arsenal would dis assemble an entire crate of pistols and then put them back together, not using the same parts from the same pistol.

January 20, 2009, 05:44 PM	#8
rellascout Junior member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Posts: 2,435	I agree with what most of you are saying but I think that the devil is in the details... I see people all the time talking about the slide to frame fit but no one ever mentions barrel lock up.... which IMHO determines if a 1911 is going to be accurate or not. I guess I am asking because lately I have seen the slide to frame pics being used as justification for I got a good one..... It does help to signal quality finishing of a gun but if it is too tight it is problem with any gun that is going to be used as a defense pistol IMHO... If we are talking about a range toy for bulleye that is a different issue but I keep seeing it with the DW CBOB which I consider a defense pistol.... I guess I just think the smarter more knowledgeable members are perpetuating a myth to newer 1911 shooters and TFL membership in general when they focus so much on what is really a minor detail.

January 20, 2009, 05:55 PM	#12
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	It's my Custom Shop Kimber. I paid extra for Dennis to give it some TLC. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

January 20, 2009, 05:59 PM	#14
rellascout Junior member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Posts: 2,435	Don't get me wrong I own a CBOB and think it is a nice gun.... I also have a Les Baer which it tighter than my a$$ and those of you like, Sturmgewehre who know my style, know just how tight that is...... but even on that Baer what makes it one hell of a 1911 has very little to do with the frame to slide fit.

January 20, 2009, 06:15 PM	#15
dmwphoto Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 96	just so you know where my guess was based on.... I agree with the OP's concept but I really am a nut for fit and finish on my 45's see what I mean on this one

January 20, 2009, 06:22 PM	#16
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 478	Did somebody say "Les Baer tight"... Baer stainless Stinger...12,000 rounds The reason slide to frame fit matters is simple...if a company cannot properly fit a slide to a frame, how do you epect them to be able to fit a bushing to a slide and then fit the bushing and slide to the barrel. Tight fit 1911's run just fine...there are 2 schools of thought here..one is that a loose gun is more reliable because there is room for debris in the rails (I know for a fact that debris in the rails causes premature wear on a hard used gun) The other school of thought is the one I agree with...its that a tight fit pushes the debris out of the rails...just as reliable without the premature wear.

January 20, 2009, 06:32 PM	#18
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 478	Locking block...thats what keeps breaking in my Beretta 96 Vertec. (2 of them before I designated it a "safe queen"...maybe someday it will be worth something to a collector since Beretta didn't offer them for very long)

January 20, 2009, 08:32 PM	#20
dmwphoto Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 96	Jason I thought the link to your thread odd as well. You were clearly speaking to detail and quality. Nice gun BTW!

January 20, 2009, 08:39 PM	#21
rellascout Junior member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Posts: 2,435	Look at the thread you need had to make sure you got a shot of the slide to frame.... I stated you did a nice report but found it odd that you felt the need to go back and take pictures to show the frame to slide fit.... It is a perfect example of someone putting way too much emphasis on this one part of a 1911 fit and finish.... Then you and other people talked about how it demonstrated what a perfect 1911 you had bought..... If you don't like the critic that fine but it is clear you are enamored with that fit...... I think its funny you were so proud of it you had to post it on two sites.... and you are defending it on both....... Jason take a chill pill.... I did not call you ugly I disagree with your post..... Is that not the point of this forum? The exchange of opinions and information? I guess not... I guess I should have just said nice pistol....... Whatever....... Last edited by rellascout; January 20, 2009 at 08:48 PM.

January 20, 2009, 08:47 PM	#22
rcinma Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Posts: 18	This is pre-CZ DW Guardian Deuce (SN# < 100) after several years and 3000+ rounds: Last edited by rcinma; January 20, 2009 at 08:56 PM.

January 20, 2009, 08:49 PM	#24
Delaware_Dan Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,304	I guess not everyone appriciates attention to detail.