Does the Mosin Nagant have a chance?

bennnn · January 17, 2007, 09:53 PM

For accuracy?

The ammo,,,,, is cheap...

The rifles, are everywhere.... So how can you take a $75 dollar rifle and make it worth shooting....

kymasabe · January 17, 2007, 10:18 PM

I had an unissued 1948 M44 that was surprisingly accurate.

**Mike Irwin** · January 17, 2007, 10:24 PM

I've shot some M-Ns that were frighteningly inaccurate.

I've also shot several that were very credible 2-3" groupers at 100 yards.

Every M-N I've ever shot has beaten the living snot out of me...

bennnn · January 17, 2007, 10:33 PM

Imagine what they do to the guy on the business end...

Or the paper... There's my question,, what can a Mosin actually do or not do? I know a lot of you guys shoot the carbines,, but I'm talking old school 91/30's.. The kind you used to be able to get at K-mart in the late 80's...

kozak6 · January 17, 2007, 10:59 PM

You can still get M91/30's, no problem.

The Finnish M39's are generally considered among the most accurate.

They cost a bit more, though.

bennnn · January 17, 2007, 11:14 PM

I've been shooting this Sestroryetsk M91 for almost 15 years, off and on...

But I have an Izhevsk 91/30, mostly matching #'s,, on the way... And I want to see just how much accurate bang I can get for my buck...

Even if it takes a few extra bucks...... But not too many....

After all, this is just for fun....

Limeyfellow · January 18, 2007, 01:03 AM

You got far more accuracy out of the Mosins if you used decent 7.62x54r rounds. There are match grade ammo in this calibre that have won competitons around the world and were designed for the Druganov and so on. If you can get ahold of the better ammo you see an increase in accuracy. Then its just a matter of going through the rifles looking for a decent barrel and conditions.

Cleaning up the trigger mechanism, a decent bedding job and sling would also add to that accuracy.

Theres a reason why the Mosin can easily be considered the most successful sniper rifle of all time, especially if you get a good Finnish example.

swingset · January 18, 2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Theres a reason why the Mosin can easily be considered the most successful sniper rifle of all time, especially if you get a good Finnish example.

Successful for many reasons, most of them utterly unrelated to the gun's performance. For one, the Soviets were the first modern army to field a large number of snipers - by a huge margin. Second, their tactics were often very aggressive with sniping - hurling snipers into more of a "find/kill" role than other armies who used them as scout/recon with the addl. mission of suppressive or sniping fire. By that tactic alone, their snipers killed a TON of soldiers, but in doing so suffered horrendous casualties in return, as kill-to-loss ratios go. Let's face it, the Soviets especially before WWII didn't place "protect the individual soldier" very high on the priority list.

And, most Soviet Mosin snipers were expedient guns by the standards of the rest of the military sniping platforms of its day. Cull some "better than average" guns from the herd, slap optics on them, viola. Contrast that to the No4mkIT and the care and craft used to build up that weapon, and it's clear just by the construction of the two individual weapons the difference in philosophy between the Soviet and western armies.

Most Russian Mosins I've owned and shot (quite a few) were decent enough, especially considering the ammo and age of the guns, but none were what I'd consider even remotely tack drivers by modern standards. A 3" group at 100 yards seems to be pretty common in my years of shooting them. That's perfectly acceptable for "minute of Nazi" or "minute of Russian deserter", their principle targets.

BlueTrain · January 18, 2007, 08:32 AM

By some standards the Red Army "snipers" were closer to what we think of as "designated marksmen" rather than "real" snipers. Even so, they were ahead of others in their thinking along those lines and were probably highly influenced by their experiences in the Winter War or perhaps for other reasons. The Germans later followed suit in their own fashion but even now it is not really that common in the West.

As a rule, sniping has had to be rediscovered in most armies every time there is a new war. Again, I think the differences in the Soviet way of doing things and the way it was done in British and US forces was a different concept of what sniping was. The scale of fighting was also so different that that must have played a part in the development of different concepts. Some of their tactics and strategies, though very costly in human losses, sometimes resulted in even bigger losses to the enemy, especially after 1942. They had a "greatest generation," too, and some of them are now living in New York!

wolfdog45 · January 18, 2007, 10:27 AM

I have a Tula M91/30 all matching #'s laminated stock and it makes 2" groups at 100 yards no problem with surplus ammo.

frankxd · January 18, 2007, 11:58 AM

The Czech surplus 7.62X54R light ball (silver tip) is actually very good ammo. It was made by Sellier and Bellot and is very accurate in my 91/30. I can shoot 2" groups at 100 yards with open sights, and I'm not much of a shot

.

45reloader · January 18, 2007, 04:02 PM

I'm with FrankXD on this one.

I have 3 and 2 love that ammo.

Jimro · January 18, 2007, 05:17 PM

If you have a Mosin that will do 1.5 MOA out to 600 meters with a given load then you have a serviceable "sniper" weapon system, at least according to NATO standards.

Jimro

270Win · January 18, 2007, 06:56 PM

I posted not too long ago about my M38 doing two great back-to-back groups at 100 yards, on 1.7" and the other 2" ... with Hungarian silvertip surplus!

So yes, they CAN be quite accurate.

p99guy · January 18, 2007, 08:05 PM

I have 3 soon to be 4(I have a 91/30 repro sniper comming)

in the picture Izzy 1945 M44 w/East German "1" in a triangle and laminate stock
Middle Izzy1943 M38
right 1940 91/30 Tula

One other thing on accuracy, or lack of- check the two big action screws located at the receiver tang, and in front of magazine (all 3 of my Mosins screws needed to be tightend when received) I use locktite blue on these.

bennnn · January 18, 2007, 08:12 PM

Here is what I have to start with,,

Out of this mess of old rifle parts, I want to build one reasonably accurate plinker. I'm not talking about measuring groups every time I shoot it, I'm talking about things like milk jugs at 100 yards, standing, with open sights...

If I can get the rifle shooting better than I do at 100, I'm going to put a scope on it..

I do not want to SPORTERIZE..... I want to keep it as close to original looking as possible, with some tweaking inside and out....

I'm sending the 91/30 full length stock to my buddy in Texas, Hedley....
He's going to be completely in charge of the furniture appearance....

Now I need some advice and links about triggers....

Let's have some fun with my rifle...

Webleymkv · January 18, 2007, 10:00 PM

The longer barreled ones are quite accurate, not always K31 accurate, but quite accurate. As stated earlier, the M39's are probably the most accurate but are far from what I'd call cheap. Some imported commercial ammo like S&B or Wolf Match will probably yield the best results.

Csspecs · January 18, 2007, 11:34 PM

I find very accurate rifles to be some what boring. My brothers m38 is fairly accurate and is fun to shoot as you only want to fire about 50-60 shots. With my SKS I could shoot 400 rounds and still want more.

Jimro · January 19, 2007, 06:19 PM

If you want it to shoot great but look stock consider hollowing out the forearm and filling it with fiberglass rods and epoxy for stiffness, bedding the action and first six inches of barrel. Make sure the crown is true, put in a Finn trigger in it, handload some Lapua D166s or SMKs in Lapua brass and do an OCW workup.

Jimro

bennnn · January 19, 2007, 08:54 PM

I'm definitely going to take your advice on bedding the stock, after I get it back from Hedley..

It's going to be a learn as I go sort of thing...

Hedley · January 19, 2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

I'm definitely going to take your advice on bedding the stock, after I get it back from Hedley..

Sweet, I was already starting to look up how to bed a stock and getting a bit nervous. That doesn't look fun.

Oh, and that wood grain in the PM looks like a good candidate.

bennnn · January 19, 2007, 09:51 PM

The project is a GO!! This Mosin has a chance......

I only had a short time before it got dark tonight, but I went out and tested the parts I put together into one rifle...
I made some new spinner targets today at work, so I could see only the hits from the Mosin.. They're just crude 10 and 1/2 inch pieces of 12 ga sheetmetal, painted white... I wanted to see if the barrel I thought was the better one would pan out...
The first target is seated (on the ground) at 25 Yards..I was only going to do groups of five with open sights at 25 and 50 just to check it out,,, I was in a hurry... I was dissapointed to see the target standing still after the first shot, and the next four... I figured I would just put five more towards that first plate just to see if maybe one would ping it... I never saw it move...

So I walked down to see if I could even find one of the shots in a tree two feet away or something,, and I was pretty happy to see all ten in the plate.. Who knows which group is which? I don't for sure... But dang those bullets just went right through that 12 ga like it was paper...

So I decided to move out to 50 for the next plate, also shooting seated on the ground. I stuck a shoot-n-c to the plate for a little extra incentive.. The group in the top left corner was the first one, then I adjusted my POA for the last five, and my verdict is;; Yes!
I had a really good day today, and this sure helped...

The Guy · January 19, 2007, 10:44 PM

Been thinking about maybe a dozen give or take, rifle bags, dessicant, maybe 200 or so rounds per, and a shovel.

Be as good as gold to awakening sheeple if the S ever HTF.

Cheapest thing going right now I belive, and not a half bad shooter at all for the most part. The Lee-Enfeild of Russia.

bennnn · January 19, 2007, 11:57 PM

After shooting this rifle, I've decided that the first thing I need to do is find a better trigger...

Does anyone have any info or advice about cleaning up a Mosin trigger, or a lead on where to get a better one?

Old Gaffer · January 20, 2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

The rifles, are everywhere.... So how can you take a $75 dollar rifle and make it worth shooting....

Add ammo and a target at 100 or more yards. It's that easy.

Quote:

After shooting this rifle, I've decided that the first thing I need to do is find a better trigger...

Does anyone have any info or advice about cleaning up a Mosin trigger, or a lead on where to get a better one?

Huber makes a replacement (supposedly drop-in) for the M-N, which can be found here http://www.huberconcepts.com/Mosin-N...eplacement.htm

Just be aware that you're likely to spend more for a trigger that really works than you did for the rifle.

If you have a Ruger10/22, you're already familiar with the concept

All the best,
Rob

January 17, 2007, 09:53 PM	#1
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	Does the Mosin Nagant have a chance? For accuracy? The ammo,,,,, is cheap... The rifles, are everywhere.... So how can you take a $75 dollar rifle and make it worth shooting....

January 17, 2007, 10:18 PM	#2
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,748	I had an unissued 1948 M44 that was surprisingly accurate. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

January 17, 2007, 10:24 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	I've shot some M-Ns that were frighteningly inaccurate. I've also shot several that were very credible 2-3" groupers at 100 yards. Every M-N I've ever shot has beaten the living snot out of me... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 17, 2007, 10:33 PM	#4
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	Imagine what they do to the guy on the business end... Or the paper... There's my question,, what can a Mosin actually do or not do? I know a lot of you guys shoot the carbines,, but I'm talking old school 91/30's.. The kind you used to be able to get at K-mart in the late 80's...

January 17, 2007, 10:59 PM	#5
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	You can still get M91/30's, no problem. The Finnish M39's are generally considered among the most accurate. They cost a bit more, though.

January 17, 2007, 11:14 PM	#6
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	I've been shooting this Sestroryetsk M91 for almost 15 years, off and on... But I have an Izhevsk 91/30, mostly matching #'s,, on the way... And I want to see just how much accurate bang I can get for my buck... Even if it takes a few extra bucks...... But not too many.... After all, this is just for fun....

January 18, 2007, 01:03 AM	#7
Limeyfellow Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2005 Posts: 1,380	You got far more accuracy out of the Mosins if you used decent 7.62x54r rounds. There are match grade ammo in this calibre that have won competitons around the world and were designed for the Druganov and so on. If you can get ahold of the better ammo you see an increase in accuracy. Then its just a matter of going through the rifles looking for a decent barrel and conditions. Cleaning up the trigger mechanism, a decent bedding job and sling would also add to that accuracy. Theres a reason why the Mosin can easily be considered the most successful sniper rifle of all time, especially if you get a good Finnish example.

January 18, 2007, 08:32 AM	#9
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	By some standards the Red Army "snipers" were closer to what we think of as "designated marksmen" rather than "real" snipers. Even so, they were ahead of others in their thinking along those lines and were probably highly influenced by their experiences in the Winter War or perhaps for other reasons. The Germans later followed suit in their own fashion but even now it is not really that common in the West. As a rule, sniping has had to be rediscovered in most armies every time there is a new war. Again, I think the differences in the Soviet way of doing things and the way it was done in British and US forces was a different concept of what sniping was. The scale of fighting was also so different that that must have played a part in the development of different concepts. Some of their tactics and strategies, though very costly in human losses, sometimes resulted in even bigger losses to the enemy, especially after 1942. They had a "greatest generation," too, and some of them are now living in New York!

January 18, 2007, 10:27 AM	#10
wolfdog45 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 324	I have a Tula M91/30 all matching #'s laminated stock and it makes 2" groups at 100 yards no problem with surplus ammo.

January 18, 2007, 11:58 AM	#11
frankxd Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2006 Posts: 211	The Czech surplus 7.62X54R light ball (silver tip) is actually very good ammo. It was made by Sellier and Bellot and is very accurate in my 91/30. I can shoot 2" groups at 100 yards with open sights, and I'm not much of a shot .

January 18, 2007, 04:02 PM	#12
45reloader Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Location: PA Posts: 669	I'm with FrankXD on this one. I have 3 and 2 love that ammo.

January 18, 2007, 05:17 PM	#13
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	If you have a Mosin that will do 1.5 MOA out to 600 meters with a given load then you have a serviceable "sniper" weapon system, at least according to NATO standards. Jimro

January 18, 2007, 06:56 PM	#14
270Win Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: Damascus, Maryland Posts: 921	I posted not too long ago about my M38 doing two great back-to-back groups at 100 yards, on 1.7" and the other 2" ... with Hungarian silvertip surplus! So yes, they CAN be quite accurate.

January 18, 2007, 08:05 PM	#15
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	I have 3 soon to be 4(I have a 91/30 repro sniper comming) in the picture Izzy 1945 M44 w/East German "1" in a triangle and laminate stock Middle Izzy1943 M38 right 1940 91/30 Tula One other thing on accuracy, or lack of- check the two big action screws located at the receiver tang, and in front of magazine (all 3 of my Mosins screws needed to be tightend when received) I use locktite blue on these.

January 18, 2007, 08:12 PM	#16
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	Here is what I have to start with,, Out of this mess of old rifle parts, I want to build one reasonably accurate plinker. I'm not talking about measuring groups every time I shoot it, I'm talking about things like milk jugs at 100 yards, standing, with open sights... If I can get the rifle shooting better than I do at 100, I'm going to put a scope on it.. I do not want to SPORTERIZE..... I want to keep it as close to original looking as possible, with some tweaking inside and out.... I'm sending the 91/30 full length stock to my buddy in Texas, Hedley.... He's going to be completely in charge of the furniture appearance.... Now I need some advice and links about triggers.... Let's have some fun with my rifle...

January 18, 2007, 10:00 PM	#17
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,610	The longer barreled ones are quite accurate, not always K31 accurate, but quite accurate. As stated earlier, the M39's are probably the most accurate but are far from what I'd call cheap. Some imported commercial ammo like S&B or Wolf Match will probably yield the best results.

January 18, 2007, 11:34 PM	#18
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	I find very accurate rifles to be some what boring. My brothers m38 is fairly accurate and is fun to shoot as you only want to fire about 50-60 shots. With my SKS I could shoot 400 rounds and still want more.

January 19, 2007, 06:19 PM	#19
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	If you want it to shoot great but look stock consider hollowing out the forearm and filling it with fiberglass rods and epoxy for stiffness, bedding the action and first six inches of barrel. Make sure the crown is true, put in a Finn trigger in it, handload some Lapua D166s or SMKs in Lapua brass and do an OCW workup. Jimro

January 19, 2007, 08:54 PM	#20
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	I'm definitely going to take your advice on bedding the stock, after I get it back from Hedley.. It's going to be a learn as I go sort of thing...

January 19, 2007, 09:51 PM	#22
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	The project is a GO!! This Mosin has a chance...... I only had a short time before it got dark tonight, but I went out and tested the parts I put together into one rifle... I made some new spinner targets today at work, so I could see only the hits from the Mosin.. They're just crude 10 and 1/2 inch pieces of 12 ga sheetmetal, painted white... I wanted to see if the barrel I thought was the better one would pan out... The first target is seated (on the ground) at 25 Yards..I was only going to do groups of five with open sights at 25 and 50 just to check it out,,, I was in a hurry... I was dissapointed to see the target standing still after the first shot, and the next four... I figured I would just put five more towards that first plate just to see if maybe one would ping it... I never saw it move... So I walked down to see if I could even find one of the shots in a tree two feet away or something,, and I was pretty happy to see all ten in the plate.. Who knows which group is which? I don't for sure... But dang those bullets just went right through that 12 ga like it was paper... So I decided to move out to 50 for the next plate, also shooting seated on the ground. I stuck a shoot-n-c to the plate for a little extra incentive.. The group in the top left corner was the first one, then I adjusted my POA for the last five, and my verdict is;; Yes! I had a really good day today, and this sure helped...

January 19, 2007, 10:44 PM	#23
The Guy Member Join Date: June 17, 2006 Location: Piper City Il. (nowhereville) Posts: 88	Been thinking about maybe a dozen give or take, rifle bags, dessicant, maybe 200 or so rounds per, and a shovel. Be as good as gold to awakening sheeple if the S ever HTF. Cheapest thing going right now I belive, and not a half bad shooter at all for the most part. The Lee-Enfeild of Russia.

January 19, 2007, 11:57 PM	#24
bennnn Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: almost far enough south.. Posts: 978	After shooting this rifle, I've decided that the first thing I need to do is find a better trigger... Does anyone have any info or advice about cleaning up a Mosin trigger, or a lead on where to get a better one?