Air Rifle Dieseling

stargazer65 · July 28, 2010, 11:59 AM

Yesterday I did a little maintenance on my pellet gun. Cleaned and regreased the O ring, in doing so I guess I got some of the grease in the barrel. When I took my first shot, it sounded like a rimfire.

I inspected it and it looked fine, just a little burning oil smell. After that, I cleaned it and my shorts, and then shot for about a half hour. No issues. Has anyone ever had this happen to you, and has anyone had any severe repercussions from it (e.g. equipment damage or injury)?

Drummer101 · July 28, 2010, 12:02 PM

The seals can be damaged but if you say you have already been shooting it more it should not be a further problem, just dont try and do it again.

**Mike Irwin** · July 28, 2010, 12:17 PM

You can pretty much destroy a pellet gun if it keeps dieseling.

Friend had a cheap Chinese import that started to diesel on him. He paid maybe $20, so he decided to see what kind of velocity he was getting...

I forget the exact numbers, but the extra oomph gave him something like 200 extra fps.

In short order, though, the seals blew out and the gun was trashed.

hogdogs · July 28, 2010, 12:25 PM

Dieseling is 100% related to excessive petroleum products. I guess some vegetable based oils could ignite too...

Seals can be blown but the real risk is splitting the barrel or exploding the air storage cylinder. The guns are not designed to contain the pressures that a diesel engine produces. You have reached a massive compression ratio to ignite a petroleum product without a heat source.

Brent

aarondhgraham · July 28, 2010, 12:27 PM

Is it done by leaving oil in the barrel after cleaning?

I have to admit I have never heard of this before.

.

RimfireChris · July 28, 2010, 12:43 PM

It's probably happened to everyone that shoots a spring type airgun at least once. In my case, I followed the directions on some Beeman felt cleaning pellets that said to put a small amount of oil on the pellets. I think they meant maybe just the first one, as with a rifle they reccomend using three at once. Well, I put some oil on all three, and when I touched it off it sounded like a .270!

This was in my backyard, I'm surprised nobody called the police. The rifle, a Gamo Shadow 1,000 seemed none the worse for the experience though, that was several years ago and it still works fine. As for Mike Irwin's friend with the $20 Chinese model, I had one, it didn't diesel, but it busted on the 2nd shot. I'm glad I only paid $20 for mine, I've seen similar ones in various catalogs for $80-$100. I hope those are actually made better,but you gotta wonder. Buyer beware.

hogdogs · July 28, 2010, 01:05 PM

*DISCLAIMER... THE FOLLOWING IS EXPLANATION ONLY... NOT MEANT TO BE INSTRUCTION ON CREATING THE EFFECT!!! IT IS POSSIBLY HARMFUL TO THE RIFLE AND POTENTIALLY HARMFUL/FATAL TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS!!!

Dieseling can occur in any air rifle that produces enough air pressure in the bore.
What happens is the air pressure builds faster than the pellet gets moving. The compression gets high enuff that it ignites the oil exactly the same way a diesel engine fires the diesel fuel by compression alone. A very small amount in the cup of the pellet (one drop then shake out excess even) can and does diesel. I learned this phenomena by oiling the back of the pellet to try to create a tighter seal, looking for increased accuracy mostly.

Excess lube used on the "puck" in the air chamber can create much exaggerated results...

Brent

ISC · July 28, 2010, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogdogs

I guess some vegetable based oils could ignite too

The very first diesel engines were designed for using peanut oil. Biuo diesel is just vegetable oil that has been processed with a catalyst for easier ignition.

For those that don't know, the diesel cycle relys on pressure to cause combustion. Diesel engines have much higher compression than gas engines (otto cycle) and also don't use spark plugs.

ndking1126 · July 28, 2010, 01:53 PM

Great post, thanks for sharing.

rattletrap1970 · July 28, 2010, 02:05 PM

There are lubricants made specifically for high power airguns that are formulated to prevent Dieseling.

Old Grump · July 28, 2010, 02:26 PM

Daisy, 2 young boys, 3 in 1 oil and an attempt to clean and lube gun. Long skinny flame, no idea where the BB went, heart pounding and ears ringing. No apparent damage and no more cleaning BB gun with 3 in 1 oil. Don't know about everybody doing it but brother and I did it one time inadvertently. 20 years later taught my son and daughter to shoot with that same gun. Still hasn't been cleaned.

**Mike Irwin** · July 28, 2010, 02:39 PM

"There are lubricants made specifically for high power airguns that are formulated to prevent Dieseling."

And the fun in that is....

Nonexistent.

aarondhgraham · July 28, 2010, 02:57 PM

I have one of the cheap chinese .177 pistols I paid $3.00 for at a garage sale,,,
Now I'm tempted to oil up a pellet and wait until dark to try it.

If I blow the seal on the pistol who cares,,,
If I can get one good fireball it will be worth it.

If I blow my hand off can I sue China?

.

Skans · July 28, 2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

You can pretty much destroy a pellet gun if it keeps dieseling.

Friend had a cheap Chinese import that started to diesel on him. He paid maybe $20, so he decided to see what kind of velocity he was getting...

I forget the exact numbers, but the extra oomph gave him something like 200 extra fps.

In short order, though, the seals blew out and the gun was trashed.

A couple of things:

1. I have a decent "Chinese" air rifle - B21/22, lever cock. It is a very well made rifle - better in my opinion than the RWS 48 which it resembles, for a number of reasons. I have fully dissassembled this rifle and know its quality inside and out.

2. Mine has diesled and it never damaged any of the seals. Most springers will diesel if the slightest bit of oil or lube gets into the chamber. It happens, and most decent rifles can handle a little dieseling. Also, seal kits for the B21/22 are available and inexpensive, and relatively easy to replace.

**Mike Irwin** · July 28, 2010, 03:53 PM

I think that's the point that people are making, Skans.

A little dieseling is not going to kill the rifle.

Continuous dieseling will very likely kill the rifle.

That's what my friend was shooting for, continuous dieseling. And he got it.

Skans · July 28, 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Continuous dieseling will very likely kill the rifle.

Agreed - that's not too smart!

stargazer65 · July 28, 2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

I guess some vegetable based oils could ignite too...

Could I make a potato gun that shoots out french fries already cooked?

Jim Watson · July 28, 2010, 10:07 PM

I remember old Stoegers Shooters Bible ads for the Barrakuda which was built to diesel. It had a chamber alongside the action that metered ether vapor into the compression cylinder. It used little glass ampoules of ether, break the tip off and pour the ether into the fuel chamber.

One source I googled said even they were not strong enough for routine dieseling.

mete · July 28, 2010, 10:24 PM

Is it silicone oil that is used to minimize dieseling ??

RimfireChris · July 29, 2010, 12:12 PM

And I would like to point out that not every Chinese air rifle is bad, and hope nobody took it that way. There are some good ones out ther, Archer Airguns and Pryamyd offer them. I'll say one thing about my Chinese gun that broke, iy had one of the nicest stocks I've seen. I ended up selling it to some one who wanted to try and restock his springer. I sold it for $30 and the guy was offering me more, I felt too bad to take any more though.

NWCP · July 30, 2010, 02:31 AM

They make a special non metallic cleaning pellet that is to be used to clean the bore of your airgun. I use Beeman's, but there are others on the market. Never put a lubricant down the bore. The lubes for hinges and such (there aren't but a couple of places that need lubing) are synthetic and are applied sparingly with syringe tipped 1 oz bottles. A properly maintained break barrel airgun will last its owner many years amd can be rebuilt in most cases should a part wear out. I treat mine with the same care that I treat any other firearm I own and use it for pretty much the same purpose in the field. They make a great varmint gun for small critters within 50 yards and under and are fun to plink with. Rabbits, squirrels and crows beware. Hunting rodents with an airgun takes stalking to a whole new level.

billfrombyron · July 30, 2010, 07:15 AM

As a kid I learned the following:

Never clean your chi-com air rifle with motor oil, 3 in 1 or hoppe's.

While dieseling can be destructive to the air rifle, it can be fun if done in small amounts.

3 in 1 produced the biggest flash and noise. Regular motor oil works well too. The lighter the grade the better.

As a kid its fun, but when you become older and know better......well its still fun!

Even more so because your hard earned $20 dollar Chinese pellet gun is still as accurate, and functional as ever.

As to the quality of it, its been used and abused by me for over half my life now, and still works. I even thought my daughter to shoot with it. I will be teaching my sons with it as well. I have so far not had to replace any seals due to my dieseling experiments of adolescence.

-Bill

Elvishead · August 2, 2010, 07:13 AM

Quote:

The compression gets high enuff that it ignites the oil exactly the same way a diesel engine fires the diesel fuel by compression alone.

OK, now I get it!

Friction/compression=dieseling, makes sense now.

And I just thought you guy's were just using cheap fuel in your car's.

ejhc11 · September 2, 2010, 03:24 PM

From an article: Don't oil new spring guns unless they detonate
Chinese guns and some of the new 1,000 f.p.s. inexpensive springers from American companies (many of which are also made in China) go bang when they shoot. That's called detonation. Those that smoke are not a problem, but the ones that sound like rimfires can be a problem if they continue doing it. On these guns only, put a few drops of silicone chamber oil down the transfer port. That often stops the explosions...but not always. If it doesn't, the gun may need attention from the manufacturer or dealer. Use heavier pellets to stop the explosions, as well.

July 28, 2010, 11:59 AM	#1
stargazer65 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 761	Air Rifle Dieseling Yesterday I did a little maintenance on my pellet gun. Cleaned and regreased the O ring, in doing so I guess I got some of the grease in the barrel. When I took my first shot, it sounded like a rimfire. I inspected it and it looked fine, just a little burning oil smell. After that, I cleaned it and my shorts, and then shot for about a half hour. No issues. Has anyone ever had this happen to you, and has anyone had any severe repercussions from it (e.g. equipment damage or injury)?

July 28, 2010, 12:17 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	You can pretty much destroy a pellet gun if it keeps dieseling. Friend had a cheap Chinese import that started to diesel on him. He paid maybe $20, so he decided to see what kind of velocity he was getting... I forget the exact numbers, but the extra oomph gave him something like 200 extra fps. In short order, though, the seals blew out and the gun was trashed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 28, 2010, 12:27 PM	#5
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	So, how does this happen? Is it done by leaving oil in the barrel after cleaning? I have to admit I have never heard of this before. . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 28, 2010, 01:53 PM	#9
ndking1126 Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 1,932	never heard of this either! Great post, thanks for sharing.

July 28, 2010, 02:26 PM	#11
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Daisy, 2 young boys, 3 in 1 oil and an attempt to clean and lube gun. Long skinny flame, no idea where the BB went, heart pounding and ears ringing. No apparent damage and no more cleaning BB gun with 3 in 1 oil. Don't know about everybody doing it but brother and I did it one time inadvertently. 20 years later taught my son and daughter to shoot with that same gun. Still hasn't been cleaned. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

July 28, 2010, 12:02 PM	#2
Drummer101 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2009 Location: DFW Posts: 943	The seals can be damaged but if you say you have already been shooting it more it should not be a further problem, just dont try and do it again.

July 28, 2010, 12:25 PM	#4
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Dieseling is 100% related to excessive petroleum products. I guess some vegetable based oils could ignite too... Seals can be blown but the real risk is splitting the barrel or exploding the air storage cylinder. The guns are not designed to contain the pressures that a diesel engine produces. You have reached a massive compression ratio to ignite a petroleum product without a heat source. Brent

July 28, 2010, 12:43 PM	#6
RimfireChris Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 421	It's probably happened to everyone that shoots a spring type airgun at least once. In my case, I followed the directions on some Beeman felt cleaning pellets that said to put a small amount of oil on the pellets. I think they meant maybe just the first one, as with a rifle they reccomend using three at once. Well, I put some oil on all three, and when I touched it off it sounded like a .270! This was in my backyard, I'm surprised nobody called the police. The rifle, a Gamo Shadow 1,000 seemed none the worse for the experience though, that was several years ago and it still works fine. As for Mike Irwin's friend with the $20 Chinese model, I had one, it didn't diesel, but it busted on the 2nd shot. I'm glad I only paid $20 for mine, I've seen similar ones in various catalogs for $80-$100. I hope those are actually made better,but you gotta wonder. Buyer beware.

July 28, 2010, 01:05 PM	#7
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	*DISCLAIMER... THE FOLLOWING IS EXPLANATION ONLY... NOT MEANT TO BE INSTRUCTION ON CREATING THE EFFECT!!! IT IS POSSIBLY HARMFUL TO THE RIFLE AND POTENTIALLY HARMFUL/FATAL TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS!!! Dieseling can occur in any air rifle that produces enough air pressure in the bore. What happens is the air pressure builds faster than the pellet gets moving. The compression gets high enuff that it ignites the oil exactly the same way a diesel engine fires the diesel fuel by compression alone. A very small amount in the cup of the pellet (one drop then shake out excess even) can and does diesel. I learned this phenomena by oiling the back of the pellet to try to create a tighter seal, looking for increased accuracy mostly. Excess lube used on the "puck" in the air chamber can create much exaggerated results... Brent

July 28, 2010, 02:05 PM	#10
rattletrap1970 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: Torrington, CT. USA Posts: 298	There are lubricants made specifically for high power airguns that are formulated to prevent Dieseling.

July 28, 2010, 02:39 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	"There are lubricants made specifically for high power airguns that are formulated to prevent Dieseling." And the fun in that is.... Nonexistent. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 28, 2010, 02:57 PM	#13
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Okay, this is bad,,, I have one of the cheap chinese .177 pistols I paid $3.00 for at a garage sale,,, Now I'm tempted to oil up a pellet and wait until dark to try it. If I blow the seal on the pistol who cares,,, If I can get one good fireball it will be worth it. If I blow my hand off can I sue China? . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 28, 2010, 03:53 PM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	I think that's the point that people are making, Skans. A little dieseling is not going to kill the rifle. Continuous dieseling will very likely kill the rifle. That's what my friend was shooting for, continuous dieseling. And he got it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 28, 2010, 10:07 PM	#18
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,188	I remember old Stoegers Shooters Bible ads for the Barrakuda which was built to diesel. It had a chamber alongside the action that metered ether vapor into the compression cylinder. It used little glass ampoules of ether, break the tip off and pour the ether into the fuel chamber. One source I googled said even they were not strong enough for routine dieseling.

July 28, 2010, 10:24 PM	#19
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Is it silicone oil that is used to minimize dieseling ??

July 29, 2010, 12:12 PM	#20
RimfireChris Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 421	And I would like to point out that not every Chinese air rifle is bad, and hope nobody took it that way. There are some good ones out ther, Archer Airguns and Pryamyd offer them. I'll say one thing about my Chinese gun that broke, iy had one of the nicest stocks I've seen. I ended up selling it to some one who wanted to try and restock his springer. I sold it for $30 and the guy was offering me more, I felt too bad to take any more though.

July 30, 2010, 02:31 AM	#21
NWCP Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2006 Posts: 1,903	They make a special non metallic cleaning pellet that is to be used to clean the bore of your airgun. I use Beeman's, but there are others on the market. Never put a lubricant down the bore. The lubes for hinges and such (there aren't but a couple of places that need lubing) are synthetic and are applied sparingly with syringe tipped 1 oz bottles. A properly maintained break barrel airgun will last its owner many years amd can be rebuilt in most cases should a part wear out. I treat mine with the same care that I treat any other firearm I own and use it for pretty much the same purpose in the field. They make a great varmint gun for small critters within 50 yards and under and are fun to plink with. Rabbits, squirrels and crows beware. Hunting rodents with an airgun takes stalking to a whole new level.

July 30, 2010, 07:15 AM	#22
billfrombyron Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: Riding through the desert on a camel with no name Posts: 95	As a kid I learned the following: Never clean your chi-com air rifle with motor oil, 3 in 1 or hoppe's. While dieseling can be destructive to the air rifle, it can be fun if done in small amounts. 3 in 1 produced the biggest flash and noise. Regular motor oil works well too. The lighter the grade the better. As a kid its fun, but when you become older and know better......well its still fun! Even more so because your hard earned $20 dollar Chinese pellet gun is still as accurate, and functional as ever. As to the quality of it, its been used and abused by me for over half my life now, and still works. I even thought my daughter to shoot with it. I will be teaching my sons with it as well. I have so far not had to replace any seals due to my dieseling experiments of adolescence. -Bill __________________ "I am lost, I have gone to try to find my self; If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait."

September 2, 2010, 03:24 PM	#24
ejhc11 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2010 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 110	Dieseling is ok if... From an article: Don't oil new spring guns unless they detonate Chinese guns and some of the new 1,000 f.p.s. inexpensive springers from American companies (many of which are also made in China) go bang when they shoot. That's called detonation. Those that smoke are not a problem, but the ones that sound like rimfires can be a problem if they continue doing it. On these guns only, put a few drops of silicone chamber oil down the transfer port. That often stops the explosions...but not always. If it doesn't, the gun may need attention from the manufacturer or dealer. Use heavier pellets to stop the explosions, as well.