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#1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,391
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Are there any owner's manuals that suggest carrying one in the chamber?
Has anyone encountered an Owner's manual that didn't state that one in the pipe is a very bad thing?
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#2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 19, 1999
Posts: 1,023
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Owner's manuals are written in a way to remove liability from the manufacturer. They will never say that. Last thing they want is for you to shoot yourself in the ass and sue them because they said it's ok.
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#3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2004
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 649
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Is there an owners manual that actually suggests carrying a pistol?
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#4 |
Junior member
Join Date: December 27, 2005
Location: East Texas
Posts: 849
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I doubt there is a owners manual that actually says you should shoot the dern thing
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
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Find an owners manual that explains how to properly carry a firearm for self defense and I'll eat my shoe.
![]() They're written for the absolute lowest common denominator. The manual assumes you've never touched a firearm before in your life. As such, do you really think they're going to have a chapter dedicated to self defense, what holster to buy, what defensive ammo to buy or even suggest you should carry it at all much less loaded? No. |
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Posts: 1,446
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Sure, lots , Ruger specifically states that the reason to get a transfer bar on the blackhawks is to make them safe for carrying six rounds.
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#7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Location: Dallas / Fort Worth Area
Posts: 678
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+1 guntotin_fool
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#8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 2,315
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Quote:
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#9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
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Quote:
CARRYING MODES NOTE: This pistol may be carried in any of the following three modes according to your needs: Mode 1 - Magazine empty, chamber empty. - Pistol cannot be discharged. - Use Mode 1 for storage, transporting, cleaning, repair, demonstrating and dry practice. Mode 2 - Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down. - Pistol cannot be fired until slide is cycled and trigger is squeezed. - Use Mode 2 when carrying the pistol ready for use. Mode 3 - Magazine loaded, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on. - Pistol can be fired when slide lock safety is off and trigger is squeezed. - Use Mode 3 when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning. WARNING: When you squeeze the trigger, you must expect the gun to fire and you must take full responsibility for firing it. Your care can avoid accidental discharge, and you will thereby avoid accidental injury and death. So, the manufacturer neatly sidesteps the whole "What mode do you carry?" issue by saying it should be according to your needs. Note that Mode 1 is Condition 4, Mode 2 is Condition 3 and Mode 3 is Condition 1. (Col. Cooper and others who use the "Conditions" weren't consulted.) Also, Colt uses the term "accidental discharge" for "negligent discharge"... Nevertheless, you have to give Colt points for describing the various ways the pistol can be carried and resisting any temptation to tell you to always carry it unloaded in the interests of safety. Some manufacturers actually do that, making the owner suspect the manual was written by their attorneys. |
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#10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
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Hey, that's cool. I haven't seen a Colt manual in some 10+ years. Leave it to them to get it done.
One more reason to like Colt. |
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#11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 6, 2005
Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia
Posts: 4,789
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I can't find anywhere in the manual for my Smith & Wesson Sigma where it addresses the issue at all. It does tell you how to load the magazine, how to chamber a round, then how to "top off" the magazine. Beyond that as best I can tell (and I'm not going to wade through all the lawyereze to look at every word, I did skim it.) it simply says to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, and your finger or other objects off the trigger until "you have made a commitment to fire the handgun."
BTW. They use the term "unintentional discharge" in at least one point.
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For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV) |
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#12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,391
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Quote:
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#13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,198
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Owners manuals are written by lawyers to absolve companies of liability for negligent actions by owners of their products. Law enforcement training manuals deal with "one in the pipe". Every owners manual I have (many) says to never load the firearm and transport it or carry it. My LCP is loaded right now, against all warnings from Ruger about how unsafe such an activity is. Florida says I can have one in the pipe, though! Just my 2cents
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#14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 1,475
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There is a warning in the Jennings manual with a pic
It says...........
If you are a bone head, a moron, a general goofus, and act in a stupid way without first engaging your brain....you can create a unique way to view the floor.....so ya'll be careful out there...ye heear! ![]() Here is the pic.... ![]()
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#16 |
Junior member
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
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The manual that came with the 90 round mag for my Mini-14 says this is a 90 round magazine but we reccommend loading only 80 rounds in the mag for general use, reserving the space for the other 10 rounds for if you expect to be going into a really tense situation...
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#17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
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http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com Ed Brown Alpha Carry| Sig P238, P938, P232, 1911 C3 | Colt Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 | Rohrbaugh R9 | Browning, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed) | Kahr PM9 Black Rose | S&W|M&P C.O.R.E RMR Trijicon | Dan Wesson ECO |
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#18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 25, 2009
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 164
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Manual for the Star pistols explain all the different modes of carry just as the Colt does.
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#19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 12,464
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Quote:
I'm surprised that Colt's manual acknowledges Condition 1 as a carry mode.
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"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson |
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#20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,902
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In my H&K USP manual, I remember it saying that the pistol could be carried cocked & locked or chambered with the hammer down (in DA mode).
Jason |
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#21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 21, 2000
Posts: 1,379
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My thought is if you pay attention to what a owners manual says in a gun box your problably should not own a gun.
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#22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
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I do read owner's manuals, for almost everything. It's a good way to find out what the manufacturer has designed into a product. They also include valuable operating and maintenance tips that are difficult to determine by "guessing".
However, when the manufacturer "crosses the line" between product utility and paranoia that they are going to be held responsible for your stupidity, I tend to start ignoring that part of the manual. Chainsaws, for example, can be sold with special chains that won't cut at the tip (the tight radius lifts guards in front of the cutting edges.) Fortunately, these can be replaced with "professional" chains, so the user can perform plunge cuts. The assumption is apparently that professional chainsaw users know about the dangers of kickback but the home user needs to be protected from himself. Another example is walk-behind lawnmowers. The "homeowner" models have blade brakes that kill the engine if you let go of a safety bar, presumably to protect the operator from sticking his hands into a running mower. The professional models we have do not have this safety. Returning to guns, I definitely noticed the difference in owner's manual content as the industry became more concerned about liability. A rifle I bought recently came with a manual that had 21 rules for safe operation. (!) Absolutely amazing. Everything their attorneys could possibly think of. While it may give them a more secure legal position, what they are doing is writing owner's manuals that will be ignored rather than followed. It's a shame that we can't return to common sense, IMO. |
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#23 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 31, 2009
Posts: 642
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From the Ruger P=series manual
Quote:
The Ruger New Model Single Six manual says: Quote:
Quote:
the other manuals I checked just say don't carry a loaded gun. |
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#24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
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Interesting but the owner's manal for the Auto-Ordnance 1911 models repeats almost word for word the same thing quoted from the Colt manual above. Although very early army manuals for the 1911 describes the carry method as chamber loaded, hammer down, that method seems to have disappeared. But the manual from Kahr arms suggests that cocked and locked is only for people who have received training from an NRA instructor.
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#25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 14, 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 238
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Kahr states it as one in the chamber for defensive purposes.
Q. My firearm fails to chamber the first round when I pull back the slide and release it. What is wrong? A. It is likely you are either failing to pull the slide fully back or you are riding the slide as you release it. We recommend that you lock back the slide, insert the clip, and release the slide with the slide stop. This will require that you carry a load in the chamber for self defense purposes. However, the passive safety system will prevent the pistol from firing unless the trigger is pulled, even if the gun is dropped. If you would prefer not to carry a round in the chamber, you may remove a round from the magazine. This alters the angle of the bullet and will allow it to chamber even if you ride the slide. |
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