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Old April 29, 2010, 08:01 PM   #1
w_houle
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Are there any owner's manuals that suggest carrying one in the chamber?

Has anyone encountered an Owner's manual that didn't state that one in the pipe is a very bad thing?
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:23 PM   #2
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Owner's manuals are written in a way to remove liability from the manufacturer. They will never say that. Last thing they want is for you to shoot yourself in the ass and sue them because they said it's ok.
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:32 PM   #3
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Is there an owners manual that actually suggests carrying a pistol?
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:44 PM   #4
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I doubt there is a owners manual that actually says you should shoot the dern thing
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:50 PM   #5
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Find an owners manual that explains how to properly carry a firearm for self defense and I'll eat my shoe.

They're written for the absolute lowest common denominator. The manual assumes you've never touched a firearm before in your life. As such, do you really think they're going to have a chapter dedicated to self defense, what holster to buy, what defensive ammo to buy or even suggest you should carry it at all much less loaded?

No.
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:11 PM   #6
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Sure, lots , Ruger specifically states that the reason to get a transfer bar on the blackhawks is to make them safe for carrying six rounds.
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:54 PM   #7
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+1 guntotin_fool

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Old April 29, 2010, 10:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Ruger specifically states that the reason to get a transfer bar on the blackhawks is to make them safe for carrying six rounds.
Not quite "one in the pipe."
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Old April 30, 2010, 12:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Has anyone encountered an Owner's manual that didn't state that one in the pipe is a very bad thing?
Well, the manual for Colt Series 80/90's says -

CARRYING MODES
NOTE: This pistol may be carried in any of the following three modes according to your needs:

Mode 1 - Magazine empty, chamber empty.
- Pistol cannot be discharged.
- Use Mode 1 for storage, transporting, cleaning, repair, demonstrating and dry practice.
Mode 2 - Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down.
- Pistol cannot be fired until slide is cycled and trigger is squeezed.
- Use Mode 2 when carrying the pistol ready for use.
Mode 3 - Magazine loaded, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on.
- Pistol can be fired when slide lock safety is off and trigger is squeezed.
- Use Mode 3 when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning.

WARNING: When you squeeze the trigger, you must expect the gun to fire and you must take full responsibility for firing it. Your care can avoid accidental discharge, and you will thereby avoid accidental injury and death.


So, the manufacturer neatly sidesteps the whole "What mode do you carry?" issue by saying it should be according to your needs. Note that Mode 1 is Condition 4, Mode 2 is Condition 3 and Mode 3 is Condition 1. (Col. Cooper and others who use the "Conditions" weren't consulted.)

Also, Colt uses the term "accidental discharge" for "negligent discharge"...

Nevertheless, you have to give Colt points for describing the various ways the pistol can be carried and resisting any temptation to tell you to always carry it unloaded in the interests of safety. Some manufacturers actually do that, making the owner suspect the manual was written by their attorneys.
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Old April 30, 2010, 08:44 AM   #10
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Hey, that's cool. I haven't seen a Colt manual in some 10+ years. Leave it to them to get it done.

One more reason to like Colt.
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Old April 30, 2010, 10:41 AM   #11
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I can't find anywhere in the manual for my Smith & Wesson Sigma where it addresses the issue at all. It does tell you how to load the magazine, how to chamber a round, then how to "top off" the magazine. Beyond that as best I can tell (and I'm not going to wade through all the lawyereze to look at every word, I did skim it.) it simply says to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, and your finger or other objects off the trigger until "you have made a commitment to fire the handgun."

BTW. They use the term "unintentional discharge" in at least one point.
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Old April 30, 2010, 11:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Use Mode 3 when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning.
That's way more pro-active wording than my Steyr manual stated.
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Old April 30, 2010, 11:39 AM   #13
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Owners manuals are written by lawyers to absolve companies of liability for negligent actions by owners of their products. Law enforcement training manuals deal with "one in the pipe". Every owners manual I have (many) says to never load the firearm and transport it or carry it. My LCP is loaded right now, against all warnings from Ruger about how unsafe such an activity is. Florida says I can have one in the pipe, though! Just my 2cents
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Old April 30, 2010, 11:44 AM   #14
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There is a warning in the Jennings manual with a pic

It says...........

If you are a bone head, a moron, a general goofus, and act in a stupid way without first engaging your brain....you can create a unique way to view the floor.....so ya'll be careful out there...ye heear!


Here is the pic....



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Old April 30, 2010, 11:51 AM   #15
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My question is, who would stop to take a pic of that wound before racing to the hospital?
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Old April 30, 2010, 12:14 PM   #16
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The manual that came with the 90 round mag for my Mini-14 says this is a 90 round magazine but we reccommend loading only 80 rounds in the mag for general use, reserving the space for the other 10 rounds for if you expect to be going into a really tense situation...

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Old April 30, 2010, 12:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
My question is, who would stop to take a pic of that wound before racing to the hospital?
A bone head, moron, general goofus...acting in a stupid way without first engaging his brain... Or the same one the shot himself in the foot.
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Old April 30, 2010, 01:01 PM   #18
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Manual for the Star pistols explain all the different modes of carry just as the Colt does.
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Old April 30, 2010, 04:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Has anyone encountered an Owner's manual that didn't state that one in the pipe is a very bad thing?

I'm surprised that Colt's manual acknowledges Condition 1 as a carry mode.
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Old May 1, 2010, 12:57 AM   #20
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In my H&K USP manual, I remember it saying that the pistol could be carried cocked & locked or chambered with the hammer down (in DA mode).

Jason
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Old May 1, 2010, 07:08 AM   #21
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My thought is if you pay attention to what a owners manual says in a gun box your problably should not own a gun.
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Old May 1, 2010, 11:52 AM   #22
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I do read owner's manuals, for almost everything. It's a good way to find out what the manufacturer has designed into a product. They also include valuable operating and maintenance tips that are difficult to determine by "guessing".

However, when the manufacturer "crosses the line" between product utility and paranoia that they are going to be held responsible for your stupidity, I tend to start ignoring that part of the manual.

Chainsaws, for example, can be sold with special chains that won't cut at the tip (the tight radius lifts guards in front of the cutting edges.) Fortunately, these can be replaced with "professional" chains, so the user can perform plunge cuts. The assumption is apparently that professional chainsaw users know about the dangers of kickback but the home user needs to be protected from himself.

Another example is walk-behind lawnmowers. The "homeowner" models have blade brakes that kill the engine if you let go of a safety bar, presumably to protect the operator from sticking his hands into a running mower. The professional models we have do not have this safety.

Returning to guns, I definitely noticed the difference in owner's manual content as the industry became more concerned about liability. A rifle I bought recently came with a manual that had 21 rules for safe operation. (!) Absolutely amazing. Everything their attorneys could possibly think of.

While it may give them a more secure legal position, what they are doing is writing owner's manuals that will be ignored rather than followed. It's a shame that we can't return to common sense, IMO.
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Old May 1, 2010, 09:01 PM   #23
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From the Ruger P=series manual

Quote:
For maximum safety when carrying the pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, the slide should be closed, and the pistol should be decocked. Never carry it cocked! If placed into a holster, check it to be sure that the slide is not retracted far enough to either chamber a cartridge from the magazine or cock the pistol.
I think this translates to you can carry with one in the chamber but leave it uncocked and the safety on.

The Ruger New Model Single Six manual says:
Quote:
CARRYING: Unlike “old model” single action revolvers, which should always be
carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber to prevent accidental
discharges caused by a blow to the hammer*, the Ruger New Model Single Six,
Bisley & Hunter may be carried with all chambers loaded. When the hammer
and trigger are fully forward at the same time, the transfer bar is lowered out of
firing position and the hammer rests directly on the frame, not on the firing pin.
but later says:
Quote:
Accordingly, never carry an “old
model” revolver with the hammer
fully forward and the cartridge in
line with the firing pin because a
light blow to the hammer can
readily cause discharge. It is
always safest to carry the hammer
down over an empty chamber
regardless of revolvers type.
This ends up close to the advise for the pistol. It is safe to carry one in the chamber under the hammer if the gun is not cocked but it is safer to leave the chamber empty under the hammer.

the other manuals I checked just say don't carry a loaded gun.
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Old May 2, 2010, 07:27 AM   #24
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Interesting but the owner's manal for the Auto-Ordnance 1911 models repeats almost word for word the same thing quoted from the Colt manual above. Although very early army manuals for the 1911 describes the carry method as chamber loaded, hammer down, that method seems to have disappeared. But the manual from Kahr arms suggests that cocked and locked is only for people who have received training from an NRA instructor.
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Old May 2, 2010, 07:34 AM   #25
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Kahr states it as one in the chamber for defensive purposes.


Q. My firearm fails to chamber the first round when I pull back the slide and release it. What is wrong?

A. It is likely you are either failing to pull the slide fully back or you are riding the slide as you release it. We recommend that you lock back the slide, insert the clip, and release the slide with the slide stop. This will require that you carry a load in the chamber for self defense purposes. However, the passive safety system will prevent the pistol from firing unless the trigger is pulled, even if the gun is dropped. If you would prefer not to carry a round in the chamber, you may remove a round from the magazine. This alters the angle of the bullet and will allow it to chamber even if you ride the slide.
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