1911's... Designed to be carried with one in chamber?

Mokumbear · September 9, 2006, 05:12 PM

An employee at a local gun shop told me that the 1911 pistols are specifically designed to be carried with "one in the chamber" and safety on.

Is this true?

If so, what about their design allows this?

Not to start another huge "one in the chamber" thread, but I am very careful about gun safety and I am curious if this is accurate info.

Personally, I have always carried a fully loaded magazine, but never a round chambered.
Therefore, this is a rather interesting claim, IMHO.

mete · September 9, 2006, 05:25 PM

YES. To fire a 1911 it takes three distinct actions .Depress grip safety, depress thumb safety, pull trigger ! They don't go off by themselves. ..If you carry with no round in the chamber [ half loaded] what makes you think you will have the time to chamber a round ,and that takes two hands, when you need to use the gun ??

drdirk · September 9, 2006, 05:26 PM

In my opinion, this statement is true: Every handgun is designed to be carried safely with one round in the chamber, no exceptions. In the case of 1911 the designer addes a manual as well as a grip safety. So, it is very safe to carry one in the chamber.

Having said that, I usually DO NOT. This is just my choice but I prefer the ADDITIONAL safety of having to rack the slide.

I find the 1911 very easy to rack. In some designs I would not do that. For example the very small .32 or .380 ACP are just not that easy to rack quickly and I would prefer to have one in the chamber at all times. Kind of academic for me however since I prefer .45!

Tom2 · September 9, 2006, 05:31 PM

My Colt is a series 80, so it also has the despised by some, firing pin block tied to the trigger. So it is another layer of drop proofing the gun although it is not a replacement for the thumb safety. Cocked and locked is a well known carry mode. Military police carried it with an empty chamber hammer down, during my service, though. They may have one in the chamber with the newer Berettas with the manual safety and double action trigger. I don't carry mine, just shoot it at the range, so it is not an issue here.

oldbillthundercheif · September 9, 2006, 05:37 PM

That's how it was designed to be carried.

Alakar · September 9, 2006, 05:40 PM

There is nothing specific to the original 1911 design that allows this type of carry. I do know allot of people prefer carrying a 1911 like this; one in the chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety on.

When I was in the service, we were specifically taught not to carry it this way. The reason was, the 1911 has an inertial firing pin (held back by spring pressure, it flys forward when the hammer strikes it, strikes the primer, then the spring pressure forces it back). Because of this type of firing pin there is a possibility of the gun firing without the hammer falling, due to a drop or hard blow.

While this would be rare in the extreme for a well maintained privately owned pistol, with the age of some of the 1911's we had, it was possible. Another problem with the age was that the thumb safety and grip safety couldn't always be trusted.

The Body Bagger · September 9, 2006, 05:40 PM

Yes condition 1.

918v · September 9, 2006, 05:43 PM

Wrong.

The 1911 was designed to be carried empty. The gun was designed for the military which did not allow the gun to be carried cocked and locked. The military told Browning what they wanted in the gun, and he accomodated them.

tony pasley · September 9, 2006, 05:53 PM

Military rules say carry chamber empty. Original design was for either, then Br-ass decided it needed one more safety and grip safety was added. We all who have been in service know where the brass's brains are and how well thier plans work all the time. Carry how you feel comfortable, maintain your weapon properly, you won't have a problem either way you decide.

The Body Bagger · September 9, 2006, 05:55 PM

I'd like to think they were designed for me.

Glockamolie · September 9, 2006, 05:59 PM

Some cops still carry them. Rest assured, it's not on a empty chamber.

Magyar · September 9, 2006, 06:16 PM

Having been "bruised & bloodied" on some of my Israeli Draw threads, I concede there are sufficient safeties in the 1911 design to be carried in Cond.1. However, some of us feel there are other variables at work that must be combined when in a confrontation, other than having "one-in-the-tube."

FS2K · September 9, 2006, 06:32 PM

Like DrDirk pointed out, every handgun (modern Handgun that is) is designed to safely be carried with a loaded chamber. The 1911 differs from a lot of the modern Semi-Auto handguns because of one key component: its single stage trigger. Most handguns these days are either Double Action/Single Action or Double Action Only which offers a slight advantage in preventing unintentional discharge. A single action trigger performs the single action of releasing the hammer or striker from it's cocked (ready) position while a double-action trigger performs the two functions of cocking and then releasing the hammer or striker.

So is the 1911 designed to be carried in Condition One? In a round about way: yes, at least, it's the fastest way to have the weapon ready to fire upon drawing. The Thumb Safety on a 1911 blocks both the Slide and the Hammer from movement when it is enguaged. All that is needed to ready the gun to fire is a simple drop of the Thumb safety. The 1911 also features a "half cock" notch on the hammer which allows the gun to potentially be carried with a live round in the chamber, thumb safety off and hammer down. At 'half cocked' the hammer is not in direct contact with any of the firing pin parts, cutting down the chance of a unintentional discharge if the weapon is dropped muzzle up. However, due to the "Beaver tail"/Grip Safety mechanism, cocking the hammer from half to full can be akward on some 1911's especially those with extended grip safeties. This is not the case for the 1911's cousin the Browning Hi-Power, another gun that is often carried "Condition One."

Alot of people view this method of carry as risky or dangerous, but compare it to an old style revolver with a spur hammer and no safeties at all and you will begin to see how people can feel safe while carrying their 1911's that way.

Edward429451 · September 9, 2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

My Colt is a series 80, so it also has the despised by some firing pin lock...

Yes, but we secretly giggle at them when they leave, because we know better! The additional drop safety detracts not one whit from the weapons intended use (combat/SD) or trigger pull. Those that despise the additional safety are either hard core competitors, or those that read gunrags more than go shooting.

Military policy aside, the gun was designed to be carried chambered, safety on.

918v · September 9, 2006, 09:03 PM

No it wasn't. The miniscule safety could not be disengaged quickly in a life threatening situation.

Bill DeShivs · September 9, 2006, 09:06 PM

You actually think it's quicker to chamber a round?
Bill

shield20 · September 9, 2006, 09:12 PM

Geesh.

1st - the military CERTAINLY authorized Cocked & locked carry - it is stated in the Field Manual!! - if quick action with the pistol is expected / desired. Now if a battle (or CCW) is not a cause for the quickest response possible - i do not know what is.

FM23-35 p11-12

"If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position."
(emphasis mine)

Now I am no firearms engineer, but that sounds like C&L to me.

Whether it was purposely designed that way - IF NOT, THEN WHY ADD A THUMB SAFETY / SLIDE LOCK??? There are NO other reasons for it!!! It was certainly designed, and recommended to be used, that way.

2nd - an inertial firing pin is designed to NOT strike the firing pin except for a hard full strike by the hammer.

kansas45 · September 9, 2006, 09:24 PM

Condition 1. Cocked & Locked! That's how you carry a 1911!

Alakar · September 10, 2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Geesh.

1st - the military CERTAINLY authorized Cocked & locked carry - it is stated in the Field Manual!! - if quick action with the pistol is expected / desired. Now if a battle (or CCW) is not a cause for the quickest response possible - i do not know what is.

FM23-35 p11-12

"If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position."
(emphasis mine)

Now I am no firearms engineer, but that sounds like C&L to me.

Whether it was purposely designed that way - IF NOT, THEN WHY ADD A THUMB SAFETY / SLIDE LOCK??? There are NO other reasons for it!!! It was certainly designed, and recommended to be used, that way.

2nd - an inertial firing pin is designed to NOT strike the firing pin except for a hard full strike by the hammer.

I'm not sure how old that FM 23-35 was, but the most recent copy of FM 23-35 (3 October 1988) does not contain the statement you quote. You can find it here:

https://134.11.61.26/ArchivePub/Publ...=%22FM23-35%22

My statement, and that of the other vets that have posted, is that the policy we were instructed in was to carry without a round chambered. At least it was during the time I was in; 1982 to 1995.

Quote:

2nd - an inertial firing pin is designed to NOT strike the firing pin except for a hard full strike by the hammer.

I think that statement would apply to the design of any firing pin or striker. The reality is, the design allows the firing pin to move under other inertial forces, such as a drop or hard blow at the right angle. While it would nearly be impossible for that to happen with a new or high quality firing pin spring, in many cases with military issue 1911's they had old worn springs or springs that weren't that high in quality.

springmom · September 10, 2006, 12:54 AM

Not again.....

There was recently a rather long and occasionally, um, warm thread on this subject started by a revolver fan. This is one of those ideas that some people just won't accept, no matter how many people show that it is true.

The 1911 can be very quickly unlocked and fired IF it is carried cocked and locked. Just today, out in the woods while chasing down a wounded pig, I had handed my stupid-jammed-up-when-I-needed-to-shoot Remington 700 (sorry, momentary thread hijack

) to my guide and drew my Kimber Ultra Carry II. There were probably 30 pigs in the forest right around us and most of them were not creatures you'd want curled up at your feet at night, let's put it that way. The one I was tracking was one of two that had charged our hunting party today. When I needed to, that Kimber was in my hand and ready to shoot (didn't end up needing to shoot it, but it was ready to go) in, oh, maybe a second and a half or less.

All it takes is practice and utter familiarity with your weapon to unlock it and be ready to use it.

Now for the safety of condition 1...it's fine. Between the lock and the grip safety, it is not going to go off and shoot off your keister. It can't. To prove this to yourself, take your 1911 to the range, hold it pointed downrange, take off the lock, hold the grip BELOW THE GRIP SAFETY and try to fire it. It won't fire. Repeat: it won't fire. It's perfectly safe to carry it condition 1, therefore. If you feel twitchy about it, check the lock a few times a day and make sure it's really locked, but you're fine, and yes it was meant to be carried that way.

Springmom

Bill DeShivs · September 10, 2006, 02:25 AM

Because the military does not usually recommend the gun be carried with a round chambered certainly does not mean the gun was not designed that way! All guns are designed to be ready to shoot. Granted-some are designed better than others, but the 1911 has proved itself worthy of chambered carry.
To deny this is ridiculous.
Bill

radom · September 10, 2006, 02:34 AM

Not to mention all the thumb snap holsters that they have out for the 1911 that wont snap unless the hammer is back. I would never carry a 1911 any other way myself.

Bill DeShivs · September 10, 2006, 02:53 AM

The gun was also designed to be safely carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.
Bill

cuate · September 10, 2006, 06:14 AM

My vote's for one in the chamber, hammer back, and thumb safety on. If I have to draw and fire, I do not want to be the last one to the party. I want to get there "Fustest with the Mostes" . May I add that I have no desire to be in that situation whatsoever but we often have no choice in the matter and that is why
The First Amendment, The NRA, and the State of Texas allow me to have a hunk
of 45 stuck down somewhere for the purpose, in condition one.

tegemu · September 10, 2006, 09:58 AM

Military guns, contrary to popular belief, are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. Granted regulations often say not to, but that requirement is for when you are just toting it around. Weapons are designed for combat and therefore ready to be fired immediately. We are all familiar with "Lock and Load", the condition of readying your weapon for combat - this is what the gun was designed for. Leaving it unlocked and unloaded is just for storage or transport. I can't believe that when faced with the possibility of immediate combat, any sane person would carry a 1911 in condition 3. I spent many years in military weapons systems design and development and never once did we design a system that was not ready for instant use. After the primary design was complete we then designed ways for the weapon to be safed in a non combat mode.

September 9, 2006, 05:12 PM	#1
Mokumbear Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2005 Posts: 696	1911's... Designed to be carried with one in chamber? An employee at a local gun shop told me that the 1911 pistols are specifically designed to be carried with "one in the chamber" and safety on. Is this true? If so, what about their design allows this? Not to start another huge "one in the chamber" thread, but I am very careful about gun safety and I am curious if this is accurate info. Personally, I have always carried a fully loaded magazine, but never a round chambered. Therefore, this is a rather interesting claim, IMHO.

September 9, 2006, 05:31 PM	#4
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	And another one My Colt is a series 80, so it also has the despised by some, firing pin block tied to the trigger. So it is another layer of drop proofing the gun although it is not a replacement for the thumb safety. Cocked and locked is a well known carry mode. Military police carried it with an empty chamber hammer down, during my service, though. They may have one in the chamber with the newer Berettas with the manual safety and double action trigger. I don't carry mine, just shoot it at the range, so it is not an issue here.

September 9, 2006, 05:37 PM	#5
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	Yes That's how it was designed to be carried.

September 9, 2006, 06:32 PM	#13
FS2K Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 1,853	Condition ONE carry. Like DrDirk pointed out, every handgun (modern Handgun that is) is designed to safely be carried with a loaded chamber. The 1911 differs from a lot of the modern Semi-Auto handguns because of one key component: its single stage trigger. Most handguns these days are either Double Action/Single Action or Double Action Only which offers a slight advantage in preventing unintentional discharge. A single action trigger performs the single action of releasing the hammer or striker from it's cocked (ready) position while a double-action trigger performs the two functions of cocking and then releasing the hammer or striker. So is the 1911 designed to be carried in Condition One? In a round about way: yes, at least, it's the fastest way to have the weapon ready to fire upon drawing. The Thumb Safety on a 1911 blocks both the Slide and the Hammer from movement when it is enguaged. All that is needed to ready the gun to fire is a simple drop of the Thumb safety. The 1911 also features a "half cock" notch on the hammer which allows the gun to potentially be carried with a live round in the chamber, thumb safety off and hammer down. At 'half cocked' the hammer is not in direct contact with any of the firing pin parts, cutting down the chance of a unintentional discharge if the weapon is dropped muzzle up. However, due to the "Beaver tail"/Grip Safety mechanism, cocking the hammer from half to full can be akward on some 1911's especially those with extended grip safeties. This is not the case for the 1911's cousin the Browning Hi-Power, another gun that is often carried "Condition One." Alot of people view this method of carry as risky or dangerous, but compare it to an old style revolver with a spur hammer and no safeties at all and you will begin to see how people can feel safe while carrying their 1911's that way.

September 9, 2006, 09:12 PM	#17
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Geesh. 1st - the military CERTAINLY authorized Cocked & locked carry - it is stated in the Field Manual!! - if quick action with the pistol is expected / desired. Now if a battle (or CCW) is not a cause for the quickest response possible - i do not know what is. FM23-35 p11-12 "If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position." (emphasis mine) Now I am no firearms engineer, but that sounds like C&L to me. Whether it was purposely designed that way - IF NOT, THEN WHY ADD A THUMB SAFETY / SLIDE LOCK??? There are NO other reasons for it!!! It was certainly designed, and recommended to be used, that way. 2nd - an inertial firing pin is designed to NOT strike the firing pin except for a hard full strike by the hammer. Last edited by shield20; September 9, 2006 at 09:44 PM.

September 9, 2006, 05:25 PM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	YES. To fire a 1911 it takes three distinct actions .Depress grip safety, depress thumb safety, pull trigger ! They don't go off by themselves. ..If you carry with no round in the chamber [ half loaded] what makes you think you will have the time to chamber a round ,and that takes two hands, when you need to use the gun ??

September 9, 2006, 05:26 PM	#3
drdirk Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2004 Location: houston, tx Posts: 179	In my opinion, this statement is true: Every handgun is designed to be carried safely with one round in the chamber, no exceptions. In the case of 1911 the designer addes a manual as well as a grip safety. So, it is very safe to carry one in the chamber. Having said that, I usually DO NOT. This is just my choice but I prefer the ADDITIONAL safety of having to rack the slide. I find the 1911 very easy to rack. In some designs I would not do that. For example the very small .32 or .380 ACP are just not that easy to rack quickly and I would prefer to have one in the chamber at all times. Kind of academic for me however since I prefer .45!

September 9, 2006, 05:40 PM	#6
Alakar Member Join Date: July 27, 2006 Posts: 67	There is nothing specific to the original 1911 design that allows this type of carry. I do know allot of people prefer carrying a 1911 like this; one in the chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety on. When I was in the service, we were specifically taught not to carry it this way. The reason was, the 1911 has an inertial firing pin (held back by spring pressure, it flys forward when the hammer strikes it, strikes the primer, then the spring pressure forces it back). Because of this type of firing pin there is a possibility of the gun firing without the hammer falling, due to a drop or hard blow. While this would be rare in the extreme for a well maintained privately owned pistol, with the age of some of the 1911's we had, it was possible. Another problem with the age was that the thumb safety and grip safety couldn't always be trusted.

September 9, 2006, 05:40 PM	#7
The Body Bagger Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2004 Posts: 818	Yes condition 1.

September 9, 2006, 05:43 PM	#8
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Wrong. The 1911 was designed to be carried empty. The gun was designed for the military which did not allow the gun to be carried cocked and locked. The military told Browning what they wanted in the gun, and he accomodated them.

September 9, 2006, 05:53 PM	#9
tony pasley Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Location: western north carolina Posts: 1,641	Military rules say carry chamber empty. Original design was for either, then Br-ass decided it needed one more safety and grip safety was added. We all who have been in service know where the brass's brains are and how well thier plans work all the time. Carry how you feel comfortable, maintain your weapon properly, you won't have a problem either way you decide.

September 9, 2006, 05:55 PM	#10
The Body Bagger Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2004 Posts: 818	I'd like to think they were designed for me.

September 9, 2006, 05:59 PM	#11
Glockamolie Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 359	Some cops still carry them. Rest assured, it's not on a empty chamber.

September 9, 2006, 06:16 PM	#12
Magyar Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,581	Having been "bruised & bloodied" on some of my Israeli Draw threads, I concede there are sufficient safeties in the 1911 design to be carried in Cond.1. However, some of us feel there are other variables at work that must be combined when in a confrontation, other than having "one-in-the-tube."

September 9, 2006, 09:03 PM	#15
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	No it wasn't. The miniscule safety could not be disengaged quickly in a life threatening situation.

September 9, 2006, 09:06 PM	#16
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,107	You actually think it's quicker to chamber a round? Bill

September 9, 2006, 09:24 PM	#18
kansas45 Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: Southern Kansas, near I-35 Posts: 142	Condition 1. Cocked & Locked! That's how you carry a 1911!

September 10, 2006, 12:54 AM	#20
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	noooooooooooooooooooooo..!!!!! Not again..... There was recently a rather long and occasionally, um, warm thread on this subject started by a revolver fan. This is one of those ideas that some people just won't accept, no matter how many people show that it is true. The 1911 can be very quickly unlocked and fired IF it is carried cocked and locked. Just today, out in the woods while chasing down a wounded pig, I had handed my stupid-jammed-up-when-I-needed-to-shoot Remington 700 (sorry, momentary thread hijack ) to my guide and drew my Kimber Ultra Carry II. There were probably 30 pigs in the forest right around us and most of them were not creatures you'd want curled up at your feet at night, let's put it that way. The one I was tracking was one of two that had charged our hunting party today. When I needed to, that Kimber was in my hand and ready to shoot (didn't end up needing to shoot it, but it was ready to go) in, oh, maybe a second and a half or less. All it takes is practice and utter familiarity with your weapon to unlock it and be ready to use it. Now for the safety of condition 1...it's fine. Between the lock and the grip safety, it is not going to go off and shoot off your keister. It can't. To prove this to yourself, take your 1911 to the range, hold it pointed downrange, take off the lock, hold the grip BELOW THE GRIP SAFETY and try to fire it. It won't fire. Repeat: it won't fire. It's perfectly safe to carry it condition 1, therefore. If you feel twitchy about it, check the lock a few times a day and make sure it's really locked, but you're fine, and yes it was meant to be carried that way. Springmom

September 10, 2006, 02:25 AM	#21
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,107	Because the military does not usually recommend the gun be carried with a round chambered certainly does not mean the gun was not designed that way! All guns are designed to be ready to shoot. Granted-some are designed better than others, but the 1911 has proved itself worthy of chambered carry. To deny this is ridiculous. Bill

September 10, 2006, 02:34 AM	#22
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,379	Not to mention all the thumb snap holsters that they have out for the 1911 that wont snap unless the hammer is back. I would never carry a 1911 any other way myself.

September 10, 2006, 02:53 AM	#23
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,107	The gun was also designed to be safely carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. Bill

September 10, 2006, 06:14 AM	#24
cuate Junior member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Comanche Co. Texas Posts: 737	Condition One My vote's for one in the chamber, hammer back, and thumb safety on. If I have to draw and fire, I do not want to be the last one to the party. I want to get there "Fustest with the Mostes" . May I add that I have no desire to be in that situation whatsoever but we often have no choice in the matter and that is why The First Amendment, The NRA, and the State of Texas allow me to have a hunk of 45 stuck down somewhere for the purpose, in condition one.

September 10, 2006, 09:58 AM	#25
tegemu Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2005 Location: Orange Park, Fla Posts: 1,019	Military guns, contrary to popular belief, are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. Granted regulations often say not to, but that requirement is for when you are just toting it around. Weapons are designed for combat and therefore ready to be fired immediately. We are all familiar with "Lock and Load", the condition of readying your weapon for combat - this is what the gun was designed for. Leaving it unlocked and unloaded is just for storage or transport. I can't believe that when faced with the possibility of immediate combat, any sane person would carry a 1911 in condition 3. I spent many years in military weapons systems design and development and never once did we design a system that was not ready for instant use. After the primary design was complete we then designed ways for the weapon to be safed in a non combat mode.