Is it really safe to carry a round loaded in the chamber?

Doug.38PR · July 22, 2006, 05:10 PM

You could say "sure because you just need to hit the deCock switch or place the hammer down on or carry it cocked and locked or carry it with the safety on. It's safe to do that and you can get to it and use it as quickly as you could a revolver."

I used to say all of these arguments and they are true. However, my dad and I were having this discussion (an exMarine from '64-'67) and he placed an argument down on the table that even a pro gunman couldn't argue.

Human error. He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer) You can see a revolver loaded or not. An military situation for which the semi auto is designed is not going to be a "fast draw" situation. A pistol of any kind (revolver or semi auto) is a defensive weapon. Your rifle is a primary weapon. You pistol you pull and rack one in the chamber if it is all you have left and you can see the battle is about to begin (and then maybe put it on cocked and locked while you are in the danger zone)

He didn't have any data to support this, but said it wouldn't surprise him to learn that ND among police had increased since the move from revolvers to semi autos.

There is a reason that the military did not allow carry this way. It was not because they were too ignorant of cocked and locked. ND can and do happen.

I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action. Or if you are parking your car and see you are in a dangerous area, pull you gun and rack one in the chamber but as soon as you are safe, get that round out of the chamber.

But all this trouble being the case, I believe it wise to carry a revolver as a service/combat weapon and save a semi auto for field use in the military.

I am largely sold on this. A lot of people in here and other forums say the military didn't know what they were doing "back then" and didn't understand the semi automatic. (they fought two world wars, korea and vietnam with this empty chamber policy, I would think they knew far more than we do about what guns can and cannot do).

thoughts and comments? Considering this is a semi auto forum I know I am going to get barraged with cases against me

hot sauce · July 22, 2006, 05:19 PM

Get a Beretta 92 and your extractor double's as a loaded chamber indicator. Or how about a S&W with the mag disconect safety.

aspen1964 · July 22, 2006, 05:28 PM

..this may sound arrogant, but I have never picked up a gun of mine and did anything without knowing a round was in the chamber...people who have fired one off by mistake simply did not look...the only way I could misjudge is if someone loaded my gun behind my back...even still I would check it first..

Chip Dixon · July 22, 2006, 05:34 PM

It all comes down to consistency.

If you always carry your pistol in the same condition, there will be no question as to what condition it is when you unholster.

If you have no consistency, you may have an accident.

BUSTER51 · July 22, 2006, 05:39 PM

Boy has this subject been beat to death .yes it is safe if you know what your doing .been doing so for 35 years and never had a problem ,wouldn't even think of carrying any other way .for those untrained and un praticed carrying a weapon at all is dangerious .I love the look I get when a novice sees me carrying my Colt Defender cocked and locked .they just don't get it .

an empty chamber takes the rapid out of rapid deployment .

DonR101395 · July 22, 2006, 06:15 PM

It's no less safe than driving your car, I would argue probably safer. I handle my weapon twice a day on average. Once when I holster it in the morning and once when I unholster it in the evening. I get on roads with untrained knuckleheads a minimum of 6 times a day. Like has been stated, it's about consistancy. If you do the same procedure everyday you will have no problems. You have problems when you put your finger on the trigger for no reason other than to mess with your gun.

pickpocket · July 22, 2006, 06:58 PM

It's not about consistency, it's not about knowledge, it's not even about being military or not.
It's about not making assumptions.

Quote:

There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!.

If this ever happens to you (the general "you", not you personally), then you need to have your right to carry a gun taken away. Things like this happen because people don't pay attention and they grow complacent. Respect the weapon, understand that it is dangerous and doesn't care who is in front of it when it goes off, and everything will be fine.
My thoughts? If you are one of those people who think they might one day have a negligent discharge because you can't depend on your training or mindset, then by all means you should indeed carry your weapon in as safe a condition as possible. If that means unloaded in the trunk with the magazine underneath the spare tire under lock and key, then that's what it means.

The military chose to make Condition 3 the standard for their 1911 for no other reason than that they had to worry about a few hundred thousand people walking around with loaded weapons. As anyone in a large organization knows, the best way to keep a few hundred thousand people from hurting themselves is to well...keep them from hurting themselves. The military had to worry about the actions of many, many people. You and I only have to worry about one person, and one person's actions.

The gun is as safe as its user.

Wyo Cowboy · July 22, 2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded.

Firearms Safety Rules

Rule #1 - ALL GUNS ARE LOADED.

That doesn't mean "assumed", "treated as" or "considered". It means "All guns are LOADED" period. Until YOU (and not the general "you" but YOU) have PERSONALLY verified that it is unloaded, the thing is LOADED. And even after YOU have verified that it is unloaded, it's STILL LOADED. Until it is in pieces on the bench, the gun is loaded. Which brings us to...

Rule #2 - NEVER LET THE MUZZLE POINT AT ANYTHING WHICH YOU DO NOT WANT TO DESTROY.

Quote:

You can see a revolver loaded or not.

If the revolver is in a holster (as is the semiauto) it must be drawn to verify it's status (but all guns are loaded

). Keeping it pointed downrange a status check may be safely performed. There are safe ways to check both types; a press/pinch/slide check of the chamber for semi's; rotate the cylinder out for a DA revolver; rotate the cylinder through all of the chambers for a SA revolver. The only other way I can think of checking a revolver's status that won't work on a semiautois to look into the chambers from the front... not exactly a great idea.

Doing a loaded status check with a firearm which results in a Negligent Discharge is always due to a violation of...

Rule #3 - KEEP YOU FINGER OFF OF THE TRIGGER UNTIL THE SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET. (some add... "and you are ready to shoot.")

No finger fondling the trigger, no bang. Finger on the trigger... BANG. Doesn't matter DA revolver, SA revolver, semiauto, Glock, Kimber 1911, Springfielf XD, Walther P99, Ruger Vaquero, S&W 19, Colt SSA or 18th century black powder Dueling pistol. Some have lighter triggers, some have heavier triggers, some have atrocious triggers. But light or heavy, pull on the trigger and the gun goes BANG. Every single ND that I have seen at the range, semi or revolver, has been a direct violation of Rule #3.

And since I've gone this far...

Rule #4 - BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS AROUND IT.

No fair shooting at sounds, shapes, forms, etc.

[QUOTE]Considering this is a semi auto forum I know I am going to get barraged with cases against me[QUOTE]

Nah, only the empty brass cases.

The discussion as to which is "better" revolver .vs. semiauto really comes down to which YOU prefer. Which you are more comfortable with. Which you are going to train with. The discussion as to which is "safer" is more emotional than logical. Either is safe in the hands of a well trained and responcible shooter. Either is extremely dangerous in the hands of a person who doesn't know nor care about proper gun safety. If you feel better (or your Dad) in Condition 3, by all means carry that way. Practice the draw with the racking of the slide every time. And just because that USMC in 1967 didn't carry in Condition 1 doesn't make it wrong. Just ask a fellow WW2/Korea marine... USMC LtCol Jeff Cooper (ret). He advocates Condition 1 for all who will train and are allowed to carry that way.

npv · July 22, 2006, 08:53 PM

It is all about consistency -- doing the same thing the same way every single time then you don't forget -- even if you are stressed.

-npv

springmom · July 22, 2006, 09:02 PM

No gun will fire unless you put your finger on the trigger and pull. If you train to handle a gun correctly, AND you think every single time youhandle it, this will not be a problem.

You most certainly CAN see an XD is loaded because the pin at the back shows it is loaded. No bullet in the chamber, no visible pin. But the bottom line is, treat every gun as if it were loaded and MEAN IT.

Springmom

gak · July 22, 2006, 09:14 PM

Some of the newer Springfield 1911s and others are also coming now with loaded chamber indicators.

Hank's Dad · July 22, 2006, 09:26 PM

I would have to agree with a lot that has been said. I have carried a gun for almost 20 years now. Knock on wood, but I have never had an AD. But I always try to remember one of the first rules of gun safety...treat every gun as if it is loaded...AT ALL TIMES.

I can understand why some would feel it unsafe carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, but that is what they were designed to do. And just like a double-action revolver, I don't feel uncomfortable carrying a Sig, S&W, Beretta or other double-action autos with one in the tube...that is what they were/are designed to do. And the trigger pull on the first shot is very similar to that of a double-action revolver.

Training and good gun handling practices can make up for a lot of mistakes and fears.

Topthis · July 22, 2006, 09:51 PM

It still gives me the heebee jeebees if I have a round in the chamber and am not at some sort of range firing. I get absent minded sometimes and really am concerned that I may accidently shoot my foot off or worse!! When I do carry, I do so with a full magazine and no round in the chamber.
That story that was just on TFL about the Border Patrol officer that shot his hand with this Glock...yeah, that's sounds like something I would do. There was another story just recently where a guy took his gun out of his glove compartment and shot his hand too...yeah, that sounds like something I would do.
You folks who feel safe with a loaded chamber...more power to ya!

Socrates · July 22, 2006, 09:57 PM

I try and keep every gun I own loaded, and ready to go.
That way, I KNOW every gun is loaded. Any mistake, I own.

I follow Wyoming Cowboy's basic gun safety instructions.
Only time finger goes in trigger guard is to shoot something, and, I follow the instructions for shooting he outlines.

I have both types of guns. My bottom feeders are 45 Super, and, I own a light weight 357, but, it's the big guns, the revolvers, that are their own reason for carry. No bottom feeder I know can match a 475, or 500 Maximum, in as small, and packable package as a FA83, or Ruger.

If 5 shots of .500 caliber 440's at 1400 fps can't get it done, I'm going to make sure the 45 Super is loaded, when I have to grab it.

What I really need is either a shotgun, or a more portable, semi-auto rifle, but, until I pick one up, the .500 Maximum has to work for that. 375 H&H doesn't exactly fit that category.

S

CDH · July 22, 2006, 09:58 PM

The thread premise is nonsense. ANY handgun will go off if you pull the trigger when loaded, and no (modern) handguns will UNLESS you pull the trigger.

What that comes down to in a nutshell is training. Wait a minute, let me say it again so people can here; TRAINING.

If you are serious about self defense, you need to not only shoot often, but to practice drawing and holstering until it becomes second nature (of course, with an empty pistol).

Then continue your TRAINING, preferably by taking tactical lessons, and it would serve you well to shoot some IDPA matches on a regular basis... that is, if you're serious about self defense.

I carry a XD9SubCompact and my wife's purse gun is the XD45/5", and I can assure you that we are both qualified to handle those weapons on a regular basis.

Now for people who only care about feeling safe rather than being safe, then they should be doing a Barney Fife and carry an empty revolver and one bullet in their upper pocket. Then when that person decides that self defense is something to be serious about, they can TRAIN properly to carry a real defensive weapon and know that they won't shoot themselves with it.

The most telling attitude in the original poster is when he says: "I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer)"
Nonsense. A person who trains specifically with his chosen weapon and learns it's proper mechanical and tactical use through training will have no trouble knowing the status of the weapon at the time he needs to use it.

Specifically with regard to the XD's, one of the reasons I chose them for tactical carry is that you can tell that the pistol is both cocked AND has a round in the chamber, not just by looking, but by feeling if you want to verify it's status in the dark.
Both my wife and I safely carry our XD's with a round in the chamber. The pistol doesn't even have a safety which I like because not only is the gun designed inherently safe (grip safety plus trigger safety), but fumbling with a safety in a moment of extreme duress is just the kind of thing I would prefer my wife not to have to mess with.

Those who refuse to train with their weapons until they are comfortable with it and professional in it's use should probably consider not carrying any pistol at all. They'll probably end up hurting someone.

Carter

Edward429451 · July 22, 2006, 10:10 PM

Isn't it the experts that mostly have ND's? "I know what I'm doingBANG)

Those of us who are not experts have to follow the 4 rules. Our loaded chamber indicators are in our head. It is not safe to carry with one in the chamber, it is a gun. There's nothing safe about it. Uh-oh, my gun is loaded and I'm no expert, I better be real careful and follow safety protocol...

I've been chambered C&L for 22 years and never had an ND with it. But then again, I'm no expert so keep that loaded chamber indicator in focus inside my head (#1).

Rule #0.5 There's no such thing as an expert.

FALshootist · July 22, 2006, 10:20 PM

First of all, no guns are safe. They are all deadly weapons and meant to be so.

Second when police carried revolvers all chambers were loaded, at least after the local marshal updated from the Colt single action army where the hammer had to rest on an empty chamber for it to be safe.

Finally, all guns should always be considered loaded. I keep my work guns loaded all the times. My wife and my son have always known this and act accordingly.

Whether police, military or civilian, a weapon carried for work or personal protection should be carried with the chamber loaded and ready to go. When you need a gun, you need it right then, ready to go.

Take a look at how quickly that recent shooting of the Texas trooper went down (the video has been on the local news). Constant awareness of the situation and immediate access is whats needed. The trooper was distracted by the second subjects entry into the situation and refusal to follow the troopers orders. Before he could react the first subject drew his weapon and shoot the trooper multiple times.

It went down so quick its scarey. If the trooper wasn't distracted he may have had time to blaock the subjects arm, draw and fire (purely speculation on my part) but he would never had time to rack a round in the chamber.

M1911 · July 22, 2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!.

That's why you never depend upon your memory. Never try to remember whether or not a gun is loaded. Always check. In fact, Jeff Cooper recommends that you always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.

Every time you touch a firearm, 1) keep it pointed in a safe direction, 2) keep your finger off the trigger, and 3) check the load status. If you put it down, even for a moment, the next time you pick it up you must check the load status.

It really is easy. Each time you touch a gun, EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME, point it in a safe direction, finger off the trigger, then check the load status. It's not hard.

If you think the scenario that you described above is a possibility for you, then I strongly urge you to take an NRA Basic Pistol class. Proper training, combined with a positive attitude, will prevent such incidents.

snscott · July 23, 2006, 12:54 AM

True Story: I knew someone once who picked up a bolt action rifle that belonged to someone else. This person opened the bolt and looked into the chamber and verified that the chamber was indeed empty. He then proceeded to close the bolt and did not think or notice that this act stripped a round off the magazine and pushed it into the chamber. He then pulled the trigger. Boom. Luckily it was pointed at the ceiling at the time.

EVERY gun is loaded. Even the one you JUST checked and verified was empty. Once you take your eyes off of the chamber, the Bullet Fairies pop in a round just to screw with you. Next you'll be telling me there are no such things as "Bullet Fairies".

So, did people have "negligent discharges" back in the days before the semi-auto was invented?

azurefly · July 23, 2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.38pr

Human error. He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer)

If your dad considers semi-autos "the most dangerous thing in the world," he is either not being serious, or has seriously failed to really consider the subject in adequate depth.

All of that "I don't care..." stuff is really nonsense. How safety conscious you are, how much of an expert you are, how religious you are about checking your gun every time... those things ARE what makes the difference between the guy who goes his whole life without a negligent discharge and the bozo who kneecaps himself.

How, exactly, does your dad come to believe that like a snake that strikes unexpectedly, a gun taken out to be cleaned "just goes BANG"?!

The responsible gun handler wouldn't take the gun out of a drawer, make the asinine assumption that it must be unloaded, decide to clean it, and, without checking, just pull the damned trigger recklessly and end up firing the "unloaded" gun! :barf:

And to make matters worse, you cite the XD as a gun that the user can't tell is loaded or not. WRONG. The XD has a chamber loaded indicator. Do your homework before insisting that we are all destined for an ND, okay? I think it's insulting how over and over again, people come in here and tell people like me, who will NEVER pull a trigger on a gun we haven't verified is unloaded, and tell us that we are just irresponsible fools who haven't had an ND "yet."

Every semi-auto gun has a chamber-loaded indicator. It's called opening the goddamned slide. And there's no excuse for not doing it if you plan to pull that trigger.

End of story.

-azurefly

Charles S · July 23, 2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer) You can see a revolver loaded or not. An military situation for which the semi auto is designed is not going to be a "fast draw" situation. A pistol of any kind (revolver or semi auto) is a defensive weapon. Your rifle is a primary weapon. You pistol you pull and rack one in the chamber if it is all you have left and you can see the battle is about to begin (and then maybe put it on cocked and locked while you are in the danger zone)

Excellent argument.

I would say that this is true for you and your dad are excellent candidates for empty chambers.

For the rest of the gun public, police, current military and concealed carry crowd, I think we will carry with a round in the chamber.

If you are not comfortable with that, then get some training or quit utilizing a weapon for self defense.

Charles

azurefly · July 23, 2006, 01:06 AM

Quote:

True Story: I knew someone once who picked up a bolt action rifle that belonged to someone else. This person opened the bolt and looked into the chamber and verified that the chamber was indeed empty. He then proceeded to close the bolt and did not think or notice that this act stripped a round off the magazine and pushed it into the chamber. He then pulled the trigger. Boom. Luckily it was pointed at the ceiling at the time.

EVERY gun is loaded. Even the one you JUST checked and verified was empty.

Sorry, but in this example, inadequate knowledge of how the gun works was at fault -- that and failing to watch the bolt go forward, which would have clearly shown the cartridge being loaded.

So technically, this guy had NOT "verified [the gun] was empty" at all. An empty gun would not have had a magazine in it, much less a magazine with any rounds that could be chambered.

-azurefly

aspen1964 · July 23, 2006, 01:10 AM

..if you are speaking about 1911 types, I had a beauty of a Colt Gov't(1958) before it was stolen, after handling it and shooting it many times I developed an absolute trust in it's safeties, of course the parts must be undamaged...the worry is more based on what you see(cocked hammer) rather than the true reality..I am bound to get another one and I will have the same trust in it's design too...with familiarity such a gun is absolutely safe...

azurefly · July 23, 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

No gun will fire unless you put your finger on the trigger and pull. (Leaving aside the issue of Glock kabooms, of course).

What do "Glock kabooms" have to do with a gun firing without the trigger being pulled??

I thought "Glock kabooms" were about excess pressure that causes ruptures and stuff and damage to gun and possibly user -- having to do with firing a bullet down a (likely lead-fouled) barrel. That involves pulling the trigger, to the best of my knowledge.

-azurefly

azurefly · July 23, 2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topthis

It still gives me the heebee jeebees if I have a round in the chamber and am not at some sort of range firing. I get absent minded sometimes and really am concerned that I may accidently shoot my foot off or worse!! When I do carry, I do so with a full magazine and no round in the chamber.
That story that was just on TFL about the Border Patrol officer that shot his hand with this Glock...yeah, that's sounds like something I would do. There was another story just recently where a guy took his gun out of his glove compartment and shot his hand too...yeah, that sounds like something I would do.
You folks who feel safe with a loaded chamber...more power to ya!

You, sir, sound like someone who should demur from ever carrying a gun.
You appear to readily admit that you don't follow four simple, basic safety rules, and then you tell us about how you fear for your own safety due to your own refusal to adhere to safe practices.

You say that when you do carry, it's with an empty chamber. So what? Why should any of us believe that once you have loaded your chamber (at the range, wherever) you are not still pointing your gun at, say, your own hand, other people at the range, or anything else "you do not wish to destroy"?

Honestly, your post makes me angry. Your avowed lack of safety screams a warning to stay far far away from you. You do discredit to all the rest of us who, knowing that we adhere to safe gun handling practices, go confidently knowing that we are not going to inadvertently fire our guns and put ourselves and others at risk.

Seriously, the first thing that should go through the mind of anyone who says, "Shooting myself in the hand sounds like something I could very easily see myself doing," should be, "I think I'll get rid of my guns, then."

-azurefly

July 22, 2006, 05:39 PM	#5
BUSTER51 Junior member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: PHOENIX, AZ Posts: 992	Boy has this subject been beat to death .yes it is safe if you know what your doing .been doing so for 35 years and never had a problem ,wouldn't even think of carrying any other way .for those untrained and un praticed carrying a weapon at all is dangerious .I love the look I get when a novice sees me carrying my Colt Defender cocked and locked .they just don't get it .an empty chamber takes the rapid out of rapid deployment .

July 22, 2006, 08:53 PM	#9
npv Member Join Date: May 11, 2006 Location: New England Posts: 35	I agree 100% w/ Chip It is all about consistency -- doing the same thing the same way every single time then you don't forget -- even if you are stressed. -npv

July 22, 2006, 09:02 PM	#10
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	WyoCowboy has it right No gun will fire unless you put your finger on the trigger and pull. If you train to handle a gun correctly, AND you think every single time youhandle it, this will not be a problem. You most certainly CAN see an XD is loaded because the pin at the back shows it is loaded. No bullet in the chamber, no visible pin. But the bottom line is, treat every gun as if it were loaded and MEAN IT. Springmom Last edited by springmom; July 24, 2006 at 09:30 AM.

July 23, 2006, 12:54 AM	#19
snscott Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 50	Nothing is fool proof True Story: I knew someone once who picked up a bolt action rifle that belonged to someone else. This person opened the bolt and looked into the chamber and verified that the chamber was indeed empty. He then proceeded to close the bolt and did not think or notice that this act stripped a round off the magazine and pushed it into the chamber. He then pulled the trigger. Boom. Luckily it was pointed at the ceiling at the time. EVERY gun is loaded. Even the one you JUST checked and verified was empty. Once you take your eyes off of the chamber, the Bullet Fairies pop in a round just to screw with you. Next you'll be telling me there are no such things as "Bullet Fairies". So, did people have "negligent discharges" back in the days before the semi-auto was invented?

July 22, 2006, 05:10 PM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Is it really safe to carry a round loaded in the chamber? You could say "sure because you just need to hit the deCock switch or place the hammer down on or carry it cocked and locked or carry it with the safety on. It's safe to do that and you can get to it and use it as quickly as you could a revolver." I used to say all of these arguments and they are true. However, my dad and I were having this discussion (an exMarine from '64-'67) and he placed an argument down on the table that even a pro gunman couldn't argue. Human error. He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer) You can see a revolver loaded or not. An military situation for which the semi auto is designed is not going to be a "fast draw" situation. A pistol of any kind (revolver or semi auto) is a defensive weapon. Your rifle is a primary weapon. You pistol you pull and rack one in the chamber if it is all you have left and you can see the battle is about to begin (and then maybe put it on cocked and locked while you are in the danger zone) He didn't have any data to support this, but said it wouldn't surprise him to learn that ND among police had increased since the move from revolvers to semi autos. There is a reason that the military did not allow carry this way. It was not because they were too ignorant of cocked and locked. ND can and do happen. I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action. Or if you are parking your car and see you are in a dangerous area, pull you gun and rack one in the chamber but as soon as you are safe, get that round out of the chamber. But all this trouble being the case, I believe it wise to carry a revolver as a service/combat weapon and save a semi auto for field use in the military. I am largely sold on this. A lot of people in here and other forums say the military didn't know what they were doing "back then" and didn't understand the semi automatic. (they fought two world wars, korea and vietnam with this empty chamber policy, I would think they knew far more than we do about what guns can and cannot do). thoughts and comments? Considering this is a semi auto forum I know I am going to get barraged with cases against me

July 22, 2006, 05:19 PM	#2
hot sauce Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Posts: 519	Get a Beretta 92 and your extractor double's as a loaded chamber indicator. Or how about a S&W with the mag disconect safety.

July 22, 2006, 05:28 PM	#3
aspen1964 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 1,030	..this may sound arrogant, but I have never picked up a gun of mine and did anything without knowing a round was in the chamber...people who have fired one off by mistake simply did not look...the only way I could misjudge is if someone loaded my gun behind my back...even still I would check it first..

July 22, 2006, 05:34 PM	#4
Chip Dixon Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 44	It all comes down to consistency. If you always carry your pistol in the same condition, there will be no question as to what condition it is when you unholster. If you have no consistency, you may have an accident.

July 22, 2006, 06:15 PM	#6
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,033	It's no less safe than driving your car, I would argue probably safer. I handle my weapon twice a day on average. Once when I holster it in the morning and once when I unholster it in the evening. I get on roads with untrained knuckleheads a minimum of 6 times a day. Like has been stated, it's about consistancy. If you do the same procedure everyday you will have no problems. You have problems when you put your finger on the trigger for no reason other than to mess with your gun.

July 22, 2006, 09:14 PM	#11
gak Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2005 Location: Aridzona Posts: 2,767	Some of the newer Springfield 1911s and others are also coming now with loaded chamber indicators.

July 22, 2006, 09:26 PM	#12
Hank's Dad Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 146	I would have to agree with a lot that has been said. I have carried a gun for almost 20 years now. Knock on wood, but I have never had an AD. But I always try to remember one of the first rules of gun safety...treat every gun as if it is loaded...AT ALL TIMES. I can understand why some would feel it unsafe carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, but that is what they were designed to do. And just like a double-action revolver, I don't feel uncomfortable carrying a Sig, S&W, Beretta or other double-action autos with one in the tube...that is what they were/are designed to do. And the trigger pull on the first shot is very similar to that of a double-action revolver. Training and good gun handling practices can make up for a lot of mistakes and fears.

July 22, 2006, 09:51 PM	#13
Topthis Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Posts: 863	It still gives me the heebee jeebees if I have a round in the chamber and am not at some sort of range firing. I get absent minded sometimes and really am concerned that I may accidently shoot my foot off or worse!! When I do carry, I do so with a full magazine and no round in the chamber. That story that was just on TFL about the Border Patrol officer that shot his hand with this Glock...yeah, that's sounds like something I would do. There was another story just recently where a guy took his gun out of his glove compartment and shot his hand too...yeah, that sounds like something I would do. You folks who feel safe with a loaded chamber...more power to ya!

July 22, 2006, 09:57 PM	#14
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	I try and keep every gun I own loaded, and ready to go. That way, I KNOW every gun is loaded. Any mistake, I own. I follow Wyoming Cowboy's basic gun safety instructions. Only time finger goes in trigger guard is to shoot something, and, I follow the instructions for shooting he outlines. I have both types of guns. My bottom feeders are 45 Super, and, I own a light weight 357, but, it's the big guns, the revolvers, that are their own reason for carry. No bottom feeder I know can match a 475, or 500 Maximum, in as small, and packable package as a FA83, or Ruger. If 5 shots of .500 caliber 440's at 1400 fps can't get it done, I'm going to make sure the 45 Super is loaded, when I have to grab it. What I really need is either a shotgun, or a more portable, semi-auto rifle, but, until I pick one up, the .500 Maximum has to work for that. 375 H&H doesn't exactly fit that category. S

July 22, 2006, 09:58 PM	#15
CDH Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 941	The thread premise is nonsense. ANY handgun will go off if you pull the trigger when loaded, and no (modern) handguns will UNLESS you pull the trigger. What that comes down to in a nutshell is training. Wait a minute, let me say it again so people can here; TRAINING. If you are serious about self defense, you need to not only shoot often, but to practice drawing and holstering until it becomes second nature (of course, with an empty pistol). Then continue your TRAINING, preferably by taking tactical lessons, and it would serve you well to shoot some IDPA matches on a regular basis... that is, if you're serious about self defense. I carry a XD9SubCompact and my wife's purse gun is the XD45/5", and I can assure you that we are both qualified to handle those weapons on a regular basis. Now for people who only care about feeling safe rather than being safe, then they should be doing a Barney Fife and carry an empty revolver and one bullet in their upper pocket. Then when that person decides that self defense is something to be serious about, they can TRAIN properly to carry a real defensive weapon and know that they won't shoot themselves with it. The most telling attitude in the original poster is when he says: "I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer)" Nonsense. A person who trains specifically with his chosen weapon and learns it's proper mechanical and tactical use through training will have no trouble knowing the status of the weapon at the time he needs to use it. Specifically with regard to the XD's, one of the reasons I chose them for tactical carry is that you can tell that the pistol is both cocked AND has a round in the chamber, not just by looking, but by feeling if you want to verify it's status in the dark. Both my wife and I safely carry our XD's with a round in the chamber. The pistol doesn't even have a safety which I like because not only is the gun designed inherently safe (grip safety plus trigger safety), but fumbling with a safety in a moment of extreme duress is just the kind of thing I would prefer my wife not to have to mess with. Those who refuse to train with their weapons until they are comfortable with it and professional in it's use should probably consider not carrying any pistol at all. They'll probably end up hurting someone. Carter

July 22, 2006, 10:10 PM	#16
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Isn't it the experts that mostly have ND's? "I know what I'm doingBANG) Those of us who are not experts have to follow the 4 rules. Our loaded chamber indicators are in our head. It is not safe to carry with one in the chamber, it is a gun. There's nothing safe about it. Uh-oh, my gun is loaded and I'm no expert, I better be real careful and follow safety protocol... I've been chambered C&L for 22 years and never had an ND with it. But then again, I'm no expert so keep that loaded chamber indicator in focus inside my head (#1). Rule #0.5 There's no such thing as an expert.

July 22, 2006, 10:20 PM	#17
FALshootist Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2002 Posts: 589	First of all, no guns are safe. They are all deadly weapons and meant to be so. Second when police carried revolvers all chambers were loaded, at least after the local marshal updated from the Colt single action army where the hammer had to rest on an empty chamber for it to be safe. Finally, all guns should always be considered loaded. I keep my work guns loaded all the times. My wife and my son have always known this and act accordingly. Whether police, military or civilian, a weapon carried for work or personal protection should be carried with the chamber loaded and ready to go. When you need a gun, you need it right then, ready to go. Take a look at how quickly that recent shooting of the Texas trooper went down (the video has been on the local news). Constant awareness of the situation and immediate access is whats needed. The trooper was distracted by the second subjects entry into the situation and refusal to follow the troopers orders. Before he could react the first subject drew his weapon and shoot the trooper multiple times. It went down so quick its scarey. If the trooper wasn't distracted he may have had time to blaock the subjects arm, draw and fire (purely speculation on my part) but he would never had time to rack a round in the chamber.

July 23, 2006, 01:10 AM	#23
aspen1964 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 1,030	..if you are speaking about 1911 types, I had a beauty of a Colt Gov't(1958) before it was stolen, after handling it and shooting it many times I developed an absolute trust in it's safeties, of course the parts must be undamaged...the worry is more based on what you see(cocked hammer) rather than the true reality..I am bound to get another one and I will have the same trust in it's design too...with familiarity such a gun is absolutely safe...