I bedded my Ruger with the Boyd's stock

[johnmcgowan]

This thread is to work in conjuction with Warbirdlover since he and I were basically having the same issues with our new Boyd's stocks.
Mine is a Ruger MkII 270 cal with the sporter stainless barrel, his is a 300 Win Mag.
Basically I wanted to see if by bedding mine would help to cure the issues of groups that were sub moa (even with factory ammo) before the stock swap then opened up to 1 to 1 & 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.
So, I decided to take the plunge and bed this thing myself.
Keep in mind I have never bedded a gun/rifle before. I bedded the front and rear action area with slow cure JB weld and made sure all the metal parts were waxed really good, buffed to a high shine, then re-applied another coat of cheapie car wax( used as the release agent) but left the 2nd coat onto the metal unbuffed.
I let things dry for 24 hours then removed the mounting screws to see if indeed I could remove the barrel and action. I dont mind telling you guys that I was just a little more than concerned hoping that the barrel wouldnt come loose and then be glued solid to the stock for all of time, LOL

I was able to go out yesterday and try it out and I can say that the 5 shot groups were smaller than before I bedded it, but,....am I just trying to get too much out of this. Here is why I say that,...before the stock swap, this thing shot 5 shot groups using factory Federal 130 gr ballistic tips that were all about the diameter of a nickle. Now keep in mind here that I AM NOT bragging on ME when I said that, the gun is way more capable than I am.
Its just that I want to get back to the original size groups that it shot before.
Yesterday I was using reloads using Hodgdon H4350 powder,
(the pics included here were ALL fired with H4350) Federal brass thats already been thru my gun, Federal 210 primers . We started at a load of 51.6 as you can see in the first pic, then moved up to 52.1, then 52.8, 53.3, 53.9, then last groups were at 54.2, which is approaching max..
The first 2 or 3 sets werent bad, but as you can see once the powder load increased, the groups tended to get larger.
I let the barrel cool down appx 4 to 5 minutes between each shot. We also were shooting into a 10 mph head wind /temp was appx 55°.
Also, if you notice, on nearly every group that I shot yesterday, there would be at least one flyer in the group. Wonder whats going on with that issue ?

Warbirdlover is going crazy up in Wisconsin waiting on his rifle to come back from the gun smith and I cant say that I dont blame him , so hopefully this thread will give him as well as I some ideas and fixes to ponder over.
Any ideas or thoughts on the groups from yesterday??????
It may be that this Ruger doesnt like hotter loads. Btw, All brass cases/primers yesterday looked fine after they were shot .
Thanks for your help/insight.
John

[johnmcgowan]

last three pics from yesterday....

[taylorce1]

Do you know which shot is the flyer in your groups? I'd say the 53.3 grain load would be a hunting load that I'd play with. Change seating depth and tweak the powder by at tenth or two on either side. You could possibly still have a bedding problems, since that group looks like it was walking up as the barrel heated up.

[hounddawg]

accuracy and hot loads seldom if ever go hand in hand

double and triple check your barrel to make sure you have plenty of free float
might be the barrel heating up and touching something
try a different primer with your best load
how far off the lands are you seating the bullet?
try a different powder and or bullet

This stuff can drive you nuts can be any of 1000 things causing it. I would blame the horizontals on wind, but the verticals could be incomplete ignition caused by the powder, primer or even a weak hit from the firing pin. Most likely cause was the barrel climbing as it heated up. And no one wants to ever wants to hear this but sometimes it is the nut behind the trigger.

Yesterday I was blaming the flyers of my range session on everything but me, looking back I think most of them were cause by me rushing my shots and not paying enough attention to the wind shifts.

[warbirdlover]

I think John has some contact at the forend of the stock but not much. It has been stated that leather is a good shim but I was going to get an old inner tube and make (and stack?) rubber which should absorb vibrations similar to leather, right?

I'm going to try the freefloat first before shimming but if it looks like I'll need it I'm going to try the rubber. Make any sense whatsoever?

I've probably got 3 weeks to wait yet before I get mine back.

[johnmcgowan]

Taylor, it was usually the 4th or 5th shot out of the 5 rounds that would be a flyer, but not always, sorta just random.

Hound, before I bedded, everything was free floated, barrel included. I then started this adventure a couple weeks ago by making a small pressure point out near the end of the forearm and it really didnt help much, but the pressure point was a tad better than freefloated .
I have the bed extended just about 1/4 inch in front of the rcvr to help support just the very 1/4 front inch thickest potion of the barrel.
* Here is the problem we ran into with trying to find the lands to determine the bullet seating depth,..we couldnt* , could not extend the bullet enough to touch the lands and to still let it be short enough to fit into the magazine. We played with this and had the dummy round bullet extended so far that the bullet got stuck in the lands when chambered and had to lightly tap the bullet out to the rear to remove it.
After I do some more test with a few of the loads you saw above, I may try to change powders and see what that gives me,even though I know this will be like starting over , but I am determined to get this thing better! LOL
And yes, there is a loose nut behind this wheel, lol

Anyone got some recommendations on different powder????
I see that some/lots are using H4831, can anyone chime in with their 270 experiences with this powder using 130 gr ballistic tips please ?

Just looking at the above pics, I would say the 52.8 group isnt too bad and is maybe something to work on and improve , what say you gents??

WBL, I say you have a good idea about the shim, shoot yours first "as is" after you get it back from the shop, if it doesnt behave to your liking, start trying it with your shim a little at a time.

Talk to me boyeeeees!!!

[jmr40]

I don't load for a 270, but do for several other rounds. I've been advised that often the best loads are the ones that are slightly compressed. That doesn't mean stuff any powder in the case, but select something that will completely fill the case before reaching the max load. If the powder is loose enough to move around in the case it may not burn as consistently as if the case is full. In my experience this has been good advice.

I use H4350 in several rifles including 30-06. My sources say that 62 gr with a 150 gr bullet is a compressed, max load. I worked up to that and it was very accurate, but was just a bit better at 61 gr so that is the load I settled on.

I'm showing 60 gr of 4831 as a compressed max load with a 130 gr 270 bullet. Since that powder is showing promise, I'd continue working up slowly and see if accuracy gets better with a little more powder.

I don't think it is as much a load problem as a stock problem. This is 2 guys on this forum who had good shooting rifles that starting shooting poorly when a Boyds stock was put on the rifle. I've been using aftermarket stocks on rifles since 1980. I currently have 4 McMillans, 2 Brown Precisions, and a High-Tech. They might shoot a little better If I bedded them, but all I ever did was take them out of the box, bolt them on the rifles and go shoot .5" to 1" groups. Just didn't see that bedding was worth the effort since that is probably as good as I could shoot anyway.

[hounddawg]

Bullet don't have to be in the lands to be right. I shoot 155.5 Bergers in my F classer and it like those .060 off the lands, the Sierra 155 MK;s like it .15 thou, My 204 is easy, as long as it is the right bullet it will shoot it.

Lots of things can cause flyers. Do some studying up on barrel harmonics.

Did you check your ammo for concentricity, was the neck tension uniform, if you polish the brass did you use neck lube. Were the cases chamfered inside and out. Might cure it by trying a different powder, or different brand of primer. I rarely hit on the right one first try, took me 2 to get the 308 right and three to get the 204 loads where I wanted them. I am just praying the new 260 coming will like what I have on my shelf the other guns don't like. If that doesn't cure it try a couple of other weights and brands of bullets. A gun might love the 68 gr Hornady but hate the 69 SMK

Yeah I know it takes a lot of trips to the range but that is the price we have to pay The wife will understand

[warbirdlover]

John, I had a great load using Winchester 760 powder. Pretty much the equivalent load to the Winchester factory ammo. H414 also worked good in it. I'm betting R22 or R19 would also.

But as we've discussed before both our Rugers shot cloverleaf sub-MOA groups with cheapo factory ammo before the stock change so I'm using that. I really feel the pillar and glass bedding will make a huge difference and shimming or free floating will be easy to prove.

I think those paddle stocks (as ugly as they were) were made extremely well by Ruger to fit these actions. For both of us to get those kind of groups out of the original setups says alot.

[BruceM]

The fact that your rifle appears to have that much freebore or erosion may make it difficult to get good accuracy. It seems odd that there would be that much.

You may want to try a different bullet. As for the powder, you can try H4831, which is the "classic" propellant for the .270 Winchester and the favorite of the cartridge's biggest proponent, Jack O'Connor. My Model 70 Super Grade will shoot under 1 MOA using 59.5 grains of H4831 in a WW case with WLR primers and a Sierra 130 grain SPBT set just off the lands. Always start low and work up.

Finally, you may want to investigate the bedding procedure for the Ruger action as the action is substantially different than most others and is rumored to have it's own idiosyncrasies regarding both bedding and tightening of the action screws.



Bruce

[johnmcgowan]

If it matters any, here is what the gun shot like before the stock change.
This was with factory Federal 130 gr ballistic tips.That is 5 rounds shot there with one to the left being a flyer or most likely I pulled it when I shot, (my error) .
The shots below and above the bull were a friend's 223,we were shooting at the same paper, so disregard those please.
The rifle has had appx 150-200 rounds thru it total since being new over a good 15 years ago.
So I know the gun is capable, I just havent hit on the right thing yet

[johnmcgowan]

got a question;.. how do I post pics so that they will show up in the thread as a pic instead of having to click on the attachment to see them?
Thanks,
John

[AllenJ]

If you want to display the attachment as an image in your post, or any subsequent post, you need to place the attachment URL between the IMG tags. Right click on the attachment (either picture or filename) and copy the entire URL of the attachment from the Properties window. Edit your post, and paste that URL between the IMG tags where you want it to appear in your post. Use the "Insert image" button as explained below. The line in your post will look like this:


Information was from:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292842

[warbirdlover]

John,
I asked the same question awhile back and got an excellent answer so forwarded 2 PM's to you on how to do it.

[warbirdlover]

John was in a store in 'Bama and whose there but R. Lee Ermy! So John gets in line for 3 hours and gets all kinds of stuff autographed and gets his picture taken with the Gunny... holding his Ruger 77 with the Boyds stock and my old Mueller scope! Pretty cool John!! John, you can practice on the rest of the pics!

[johnmcgowan]

Who is that handsome studmuffin guy in the red shirt anyway? LOL

Jerry, thanks very much for posting the pics. I will have to work on my computer skills to post the other shots I took of today.
It was truly a highlight to meet the Gunny in person, he actually talked to me for about 5 minutes while there was still a long line of folks waiting their turn. But hey, I had to wait too , so I didnt feel too brokenhearted about the others who were then behind me, lol .
He did tell me that yesterday he purchased a 375 H&H Magnum, Im assuming at the tactical store( Hoover Tactical Firearms) where we are pictured at since he was there yesterday as well. When talking about his rifle,he would say "elephant gun" , raise his big ol' brushy eyebrows and then laughed.

As you can see in the picture, I got several pics of him with holding my Ruger 270 with the Boyd stock and I got him to autograph my rifle's hard case too.
I thanked him for his service while I was talking to him, ( I made sure to do that!!) What a treat to actually meet the Gunny !!! Hoo -Raaah
John

[johnmcgowan]

a couple more shots of Gunny and I.....




Enjoy,
John

[hoffbill]

I have experienced the occasional flier issue with my Savage 270 reloads. I had a thread on here a couple of weeks ago, titled "cause of fliers" and the consensus of the guys with lots of reloading and bench experience was that is was likely an ammo issue probably related to neck concentricity. The solution would start by setting the piece of brass that produced the flier aside immediately and either discarding it or checking for neck concentricity and neck turning it to correct the brass.
Many posters and several articles I read indicated that concentricity problems often re occur quickly after neck turning especially on cheaper brass, I concluded that rather than spend money on the equipment to turn necks I will instead spend it on some high end brass such as Lapua to use for load development and target shooting. The fliers I have experienced are still well within minute of deer especially up to 300 yds like yours appear to be.
So my next steps are to pillar and glass bed the rifle, and buy some high end brass or carefully sort my Win and Rem brass while shooting and see if those things cut down or eliminate fliers.
Onward and upward in the relentless quest of ONE RAGGED HOLE

[Picher]

A couple of observations from your group sizes and vertical stringing.

1. If you have a pressure pad, it may not have sufficient uplift to stop the barrel from bouncing off it. If free-floated, there needs to be more separation than a dollar-bill. One sixteenth of an inch is minimal separation.

2. I don't trust a 12:00 wind, especially one that's 10 mph or more. You have some pretty good groups with flyers that could be traced to wind variations. Try to shoot early or late in the day when wind and mirage aren't problems.

3. Primers make a big difference in consistency. Try magnum primers, especially in colder weather and with slower burning powders.

4. Be sure there's a small gap under the recoil plate. The action could be rocking on it, causing vertical grouping. Also, be sure that if there's a blind hole in the receiver that it doesn't have epoxy in it that prevents full tightening. (I may have mentioned this before.)
-----------------------------
If all else fails, replace the scope and check bases for tightness.

[hooligan1]

I think Taylorce is a little off on his pick, I say the 52.8 grns of H4350 is exactly where I'd start.
1. H4350 is fine powder for the .270 win.(it's what my rifle and bullet combo loves)
2. Any group as tight as the 52.8 was that's a damn respectable place to start tweaking.
3. Don't let the flyers get you down, it happens to all shooters from time to time.
4. Like Taylorce1 says adjust your AOL, a little at a time, as well as powder weights, be it minus .03 or plus .03 grains at a time.


I like the way that rifle shoots, and your pretty good too, good shooting man!

[warbirdlover]

You should have seen the groups these rifles shot before we both switched stocks! With FACTORY ammo!!

[Picher]

Barrel harmonics may have been just right for the factory ammo. Sometimes it takes considerable load tuning or rifle tweaking to get what came from the factory, but on hunting rifles, many people would give up slightly tighter groups for the POI consistency of free-floated barrels. You just need to find the best combination of consistency and grouping ability to meet your needs.

[hounddawg]

factory loads tend to be geared toward the OCW so they will shoot in almost any gun well.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

another thing you should consider is action screw torque, my CZ's are notorious for demanding the action screws be torqued to their liking, and each is different. Did not think my Savages were that picky but came across this

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/

[taylorce1]

I think Taylorce is a little off on his pick, I say the 52.8 grns of H4350 is exactly where I'd start.

52.8 grains was a good group as well but the 53.3 was the smallest that he posted. In the 52.8 grain his group was probably thrown open by his trigger squeeze on that particular group. Plus I'll take a little vertical stringing over horizontal if I have my choice. 53.3 should give a little more speed over 52.8 and I'll let my groups open up a little on a hunting rifle for the increase in velocity. If it was a bench rifle vs. what it actually is then I would take accuracy over the speed anyday. However in hunting situations the 53.3 grain group is as good as you'll ever need out of a .270 rifle.

Plus if it was my rifle I'd find powders in the burn rate range of I4831 or H4831 as those are really the best powders I've ever used for the .270 in the 130 grain bullet range. So for powders in the .270 I'd try RL-19, N160, along with the 4831 powders. So far I4831 is my go to powder in my current .270 as it has been giving the best accuracy and speed. The .270 and 4831 go together like PB&J and I've never found a person who reloads the .270 that couldn't get one of those powders to work. Just don't think the powders interchange as I4831 is a little bulkier than H4831.

[hounddawg]

if it is just meant to be a meat hunter then I would go from 53.9 to 54.2 in .1 increments to see if they all group in the same area. If they do then load up 54.1s and you have plenty of room for error in loads, temps, and range calling and plenty of accuracy out to 250 or 300 for a 3 inch kill zone animal in my opinion