Better bear defense. 40 S&W or 357mag?

qqq1 · August 29, 2011, 12:36 AM

I have 2 handguns to carry, a 40 S&W (Sigma) and a 357 (S&W 66-7 4inch). Considering that is what I have to work with which might work out better if I was to run into a bad situation with a bear? Cougars/coyotes/wolves/feral pigs are also possible but I'm more worried about being able to stop a bear. I read that a 180 grain in a 357 might do the trick but also that a few 180's in at least one persons S&W 66 instantly gave it bad end shake. Sure I'd rather mess up the gun and live but it would be nice to keep it good at least when practicing with them. I saw some suggestions for heavy non hollow points because you need a lot of penetration. Another thought is 14 shots vs 6. What's your idea on which gun and what ammo?

BarryLee · August 29, 2011, 12:51 AM

I have a Model 66 and am a big fan of the gun, but there is a history of the gun having some problems with higher powered loads. However, if you only fire a limited number not sure how much of an issue that might be. In your OP you failed to mention how long the barrel is on the .357 which would be a significant factor to consider when making a decision.

phatspeed7x · August 29, 2011, 01:02 AM

I would thing the .357 magnum would have more stopping power, granted the sigma would throw more lead down range...

kinoons · August 29, 2011, 01:27 AM

If you're worried about four legged creatures I'd actually say neither. I just sold my 357 mag to get a 44 mag to carry in the woods...

If you're really stuck on those two I'd go with the heaviest .357 mag you can get. Penetration into four legged creatures is even more critical than it is for shooting people.

qqq1 · August 29, 2011, 01:27 AM

The 66-7 is a 4 inch. I added it to my OP.

Don Glock · August 29, 2011, 01:57 AM

i would go with pull power 180gr 357mag for bears. (yes, it does come in that weight lol)

TylerD45ACP · August 29, 2011, 03:15 AM

357 MAGNUM for the bears without a doubt instead of a 40S&W. I really dont think a 40 would be a good round but I dont know if you are referring to blackies or grizzlys. If its the latter I would go bigger than 357. Get a 10MM or 44MAG. Personally Id probably get a Delta Elite 10MM on my hip with hard cast loads at HIGH velocity. I would also have an Auto shotgun loaded with 4 Brenneke Slugs and 2 000 Buck Loads, 2 3/4"'s would do the trick. Honestly I would love an AA12 for a bear with some 20 round drums, imagine how awesome that would be for bear defense.

BillCA · August 29, 2011, 05:12 AM

Stick with the .357 Magnum.

Federal P357J 180gr Castcore @ 1130 fps delivers 510 ft-lbs.
Winchester's 180gr S357P JHP @ 1180 fps gives out 557 ft-lbs.

Federal's American Eagle pushes the 158gr JSP bullet up to 1240 fps and 539 ft-lbs. It's also easier to find (catalog AE357A or Federal Classic C357E).

The heavier the bullet, the better the odds it'll break or punch through the heavier bones and organs of a bruin. You need penetration to reach his vitals. Never use JHP's designed for self-defense on big critters. They won't penetrate far enough and then you have a wounded animal to deal with. Stick with JSP or solids or ammo designed for hunting.

All this assuming you're talking black bears (Ursus Americanus).
If you're in Brown Bear (Ursus Arctos) territory, step up to the .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum or .454 for "adequate" bear protection.

In country populated with or know to be frequented by Grizzly Bears (Ursus Arctos Horriblis) a good 12-gauge pump with slugs is highly recommended. Myself, I'd prefer a bazooka.

jmr40 · August 29, 2011, 08:00 AM

Use the 357 and load it with these.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=337

A 200 gr. hardcast bullet that should be running about 1200 fps from your gun will do the job. The 40 is not even in the running. My personal choice in my Glock in 10mm, but it will push the 200 gr bullets at a little over 1300 fps.

jrothWA · August 29, 2011, 09:21 AM

loaded with Federal 180gr Hot cast lead loads. Other that those regular carry is 140gr Hornady XTP.

Any semi-auto cartridge should be FMJ at max velocity YOU can comfortably handle.

old bear · August 29, 2011, 02:11 PM

Use the hottest 180Gr. 357 Magnum load you can get your hands on. Don't shoot these at the range. Only use these rounds for real, if you were to have to defend yourself against a bear or other dangerous game are you really going to worry about causing end-shake in your M-66?

publius · August 29, 2011, 02:15 PM

.357 w/ hardcast SWC 180 or 200gr. I would hate to have to depend on it though, a .44 is underpowered for a mad brown.

Isk · August 29, 2011, 06:42 PM

The doubletap load is good, but I carry Buffalo Bore .357 Magnum, 180 gr. hard-cast rounds. I think 1375 fps out of a 4" barrel...roughly 750 ft./lbs. Probably close to as good as it gets...but then I fire mine out a Ruger Blackhawk.

qqq1 · August 29, 2011, 07:10 PM

Thanks everyone. I would like to have a 44mag but between the price of the gun and ammo it's pretty hard to swing. It's not like I'm in the middle of bear hq but I go out alone a lot into unknown woods looking for geocaches and neat places. I live in lower Michigan now but I'm from the UP and I've walked up on few bears. Luckily they all ran away.

Noreaster · August 29, 2011, 07:11 PM

The Federal Cast Core is a serious pill from your 357 magnum. It can be purchased off the shelf. Check for an article on bear hunting from Foggy Mountain Guide service. The author used 357 mag for years and then had a failure with it and went to 41 mag. It's a good read. If you use a Cast Core or BB heavy slug I don't think you'd have any problem with penetration.

JonathanZ · August 29, 2011, 07:12 PM

A 357 is adequate for bear defense and much more up to the task than the 40. +1 on those Buffalo Bore 180 grain hardcast loads.

TylerD45ACP · August 29, 2011, 10:16 PM

Hard Cast is a must to smash through the heads.

skidder · August 29, 2011, 11:22 PM

357 no doubt!

Mosin44az · August 30, 2011, 01:02 AM

Between those two, the .357.

But I would add a can of Bear Spray, UDAP or other established brand.....

I used to carry a .44 mag, but carry the Spray now. It's documented effective. Saves weight too. Also have a pistol, but it's not the lug it used to be.

RalphS · August 30, 2011, 02:44 PM

Lots of good responses here. I agree with all the previous posts. I would just add - it depends on how big the bear is.

I can't comment on whether the S&W 66 can handle heavy loads. I have a GP-100 357 and I handload it with Beartoothbullets 185 gr. WFN bullets. I'd carry that in most of the lower 48 except for the Rocky Mountains. In griz country, I'd carry at least 44 Mag.

Leave the 40S&W at home.

Archer 9505 · August 30, 2011, 03:16 PM

Of the two choices, I'd pick the .357; my real choice would be a .41 or .44 mags with heay hard cast loadings (Buffalo Bore). Also, I'd carry bear spray. Statistical studies of bear attacks give the edge to spray over firearms. Myself, I'll carry both, not all predators are walking on four legs.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...s._Bullets.pdf

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_coug...prayAlaska.pdf

RalphS · August 30, 2011, 03:26 PM

I have carried UDAP in Yellowstone a few years ago and I agree that it's a viable means of self defense.

The problem with these discussions is that we don't have a lot of cases to study where people used bear spray or handguns to defend themselves against bears.

There were two people killed in Yellowstone this year (one just happened) from bears, one person killed in the Olympic National Park from a mountain goat last year and 1 or 2 people killed in the Gallatin Forest last year from a bear. None of them had bear spray or guns. So, what do we learn from these cases? Nothing.

The only case I know of is the one in Alaska where the guy was charged by an old, starving brown bear and he pulled out his Ruger Alaskan and started blasting away. If I recall correctly, he got off three shots before the revolver jammed because the bullets jumped crimp. The third shot stopped the bear.

cwok · August 30, 2011, 03:43 PM

... whichever weapon is loudest.

Shot placement, bullet weight composition etc is all great, but presumably you'd be shooting at a moving target - moving toward you.

Even if the bear winds up dead, you'd probably wind up rather badly hurt (insert multiple exclamation points and upside down smileys).

This is a case where I'd value trying to Scare the Bear,

since winning the fight,
while better than losing losing the fight,
would probably not be as good as -- a Forfit.

.

RalphS · August 30, 2011, 03:50 PM

Here's a guy who used a 357 against an Alaskan brown bear last year

http://www.adn.com/2010/06/24/133952...2-attacks.html

He fired a total of three shots and missed the bear.

C0untZer0 · August 30, 2011, 03:57 PM

I think this resolves the caliber debate - the misses with the .357 were totally ineffectual.

If he would have missed using a larger caliber things would have been different.

FBI testing showed misses with a .45 to be between .001% and .0015% more effective than misses with the .357 magnum.

The .45 also shows up as a better round to miss with in Greg Ellifritz's studies.

August 29, 2011, 12:36 AM	#1
qqq1 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 132	Better bear defense. 40 S&W or 357mag? I have 2 handguns to carry, a 40 S&W (Sigma) and a 357 (S&W 66-7 4inch). Considering that is what I have to work with which might work out better if I was to run into a bad situation with a bear? Cougars/coyotes/wolves/feral pigs are also possible but I'm more worried about being able to stop a bear. I read that a 180 grain in a 357 might do the trick but also that a few 180's in at least one persons S&W 66 instantly gave it bad end shake. Sure I'd rather mess up the gun and live but it would be nice to keep it good at least when practicing with them. I saw some suggestions for heavy non hollow points because you need a lot of penetration. Another thought is 14 shots vs 6. What's your idea on which gun and what ammo? Last edited by qqq1; August 29, 2011 at 01:25 AM.

August 29, 2011, 12:51 AM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	I have a Model 66 and am a big fan of the gun, but there is a history of the gun having some problems with higher powered loads. However, if you only fire a limited number not sure how much of an issue that might be. In your OP you failed to mention how long the barrel is on the .357 which would be a significant factor to consider when making a decision. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

August 29, 2011, 09:21 AM	#10
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,529	For bear, I use a 4" .357... loaded with Federal 180gr Hot cast lead loads. Other that those regular carry is 140gr Hornady XTP. Any semi-auto cartridge should be FMJ at max velocity YOU can comfortably handle.

August 30, 2011, 03:16 PM	#21
Archer 9505 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Location: Maine Posts: 213	.357 Of the two choices, I'd pick the .357; my real choice would be a .41 or .44 mags with heay hard cast loadings (Buffalo Bore). Also, I'd carry bear spray. Statistical studies of bear attacks give the edge to spray over firearms. Myself, I'll carry both, not all predators are walking on four legs. http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...s._Bullets.pdf http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_coug...prayAlaska.pdf Last edited by Archer 9505; August 30, 2011 at 03:25 PM.

August 30, 2011, 03:43 PM	#23
cwok Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Posts: 316	Consider picking ... ... whichever weapon is loudest. Shot placement, bullet weight composition etc is all great, but presumably you'd be shooting at a moving target - moving toward you. Even if the bear winds up dead, you'd probably wind up rather badly hurt (insert multiple exclamation points and upside down smileys). This is a case where I'd value trying to Scare the Bear, since winning the fight, while better than losing losing the fight, would probably not be as good as -- a Forfit. .

August 29, 2011, 01:02 AM	#3
phatspeed7x Junior member Join Date: October 16, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 132	I would thing the .357 magnum would have more stopping power, granted the sigma would throw more lead down range...

August 29, 2011, 01:27 AM	#4
kinoons Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 409	If you're worried about four legged creatures I'd actually say neither. I just sold my 357 mag to get a 44 mag to carry in the woods... If you're really stuck on those two I'd go with the heaviest .357 mag you can get. Penetration into four legged creatures is even more critical than it is for shooting people.

August 29, 2011, 01:57 AM	#6
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	i would go with pull power 180gr 357mag for bears. (yes, it does come in that weight lol)

August 29, 2011, 03:15 AM	#7
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	357 MAGNUM for the bears without a doubt instead of a 40S&W. I really dont think a 40 would be a good round but I dont know if you are referring to blackies or grizzlys. If its the latter I would go bigger than 357. Get a 10MM or 44MAG. Personally Id probably get a Delta Elite 10MM on my hip with hard cast loads at HIGH velocity. I would also have an Auto shotgun loaded with 4 Brenneke Slugs and 2 000 Buck Loads, 2 3/4"'s would do the trick. Honestly I would love an AA12 for a bear with some 20 round drums, imagine how awesome that would be for bear defense.

August 29, 2011, 05:12 AM	#8
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,116	Stick with the .357 Magnum. Federal P357J 180gr Castcore @ 1130 fps delivers 510 ft-lbs. Winchester's 180gr S357P JHP @ 1180 fps gives out 557 ft-lbs. Federal's American Eagle pushes the 158gr JSP bullet up to 1240 fps and 539 ft-lbs. It's also easier to find (catalog AE357A or Federal Classic C357E). The heavier the bullet, the better the odds it'll break or punch through the heavier bones and organs of a bruin. You need penetration to reach his vitals. Never use JHP's designed for self-defense on big critters. They won't penetrate far enough and then you have a wounded animal to deal with. Stick with JSP or solids or ammo designed for hunting. All this assuming you're talking black bears (Ursus Americanus). If you're in Brown Bear (Ursus Arctos) territory, step up to the .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum or .454 for "adequate" bear protection. In country populated with or know to be frequented by Grizzly Bears (Ursus Arctos Horriblis) a good 12-gauge pump with slugs is highly recommended. Myself, I'd prefer a bazooka.

August 29, 2011, 08:00 AM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,974	Use the 357 and load it with these. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=337 A 200 gr. hardcast bullet that should be running about 1200 fps from your gun will do the job. The 40 is not even in the running. My personal choice in my Glock in 10mm, but it will push the 200 gr bullets at a little over 1300 fps.

August 29, 2011, 02:11 PM	#11
old bear Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: Not close enough to the beach Posts: 1,477	Use the hottest 180Gr. 357 Magnum load you can get your hands on. Don't shoot these at the range. Only use these rounds for real, if you were to have to defend yourself against a bear or other dangerous game are you really going to worry about causing end-shake in your M-66?

August 29, 2011, 02:15 PM	#12
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	.357 w/ hardcast SWC 180 or 200gr. I would hate to have to depend on it though, a .44 is underpowered for a mad brown.

August 29, 2011, 06:42 PM	#13
Isk Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2011 Location: Alaska Posts: 206	The doubletap load is good, but I carry Buffalo Bore .357 Magnum, 180 gr. hard-cast rounds. I think 1375 fps out of a 4" barrel...roughly 750 ft./lbs. Probably close to as good as it gets...but then I fire mine out a Ruger Blackhawk.

August 29, 2011, 07:10 PM	#14
qqq1 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 132	Thanks everyone. I would like to have a 44mag but between the price of the gun and ammo it's pretty hard to swing. It's not like I'm in the middle of bear hq but I go out alone a lot into unknown woods looking for geocaches and neat places. I live in lower Michigan now but I'm from the UP and I've walked up on few bears. Luckily they all ran away.

August 29, 2011, 07:11 PM	#15
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	The Federal Cast Core is a serious pill from your 357 magnum. It can be purchased off the shelf. Check for an article on bear hunting from Foggy Mountain Guide service. The author used 357 mag for years and then had a failure with it and went to 41 mag. It's a good read. If you use a Cast Core or BB heavy slug I don't think you'd have any problem with penetration.

August 29, 2011, 07:12 PM	#16
JonathanZ Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 228	A 357 is adequate for bear defense and much more up to the task than the 40. +1 on those Buffalo Bore 180 grain hardcast loads.

August 29, 2011, 10:16 PM	#17
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Hard Cast is a must to smash through the heads.

August 29, 2011, 11:22 PM	#18
skidder Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 640	357 no doubt!

August 30, 2011, 01:02 AM	#19
Mosin44az Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2006 Posts: 2,627	Between those two, the .357. But I would add a can of Bear Spray, UDAP or other established brand..... I used to carry a .44 mag, but carry the Spray now. It's documented effective. Saves weight too. Also have a pistol, but it's not the lug it used to be.

August 30, 2011, 02:44 PM	#20
RalphS Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 111	Lots of good responses here. I agree with all the previous posts. I would just add - it depends on how big the bear is. I can't comment on whether the S&W 66 can handle heavy loads. I have a GP-100 357 and I handload it with Beartoothbullets 185 gr. WFN bullets. I'd carry that in most of the lower 48 except for the Rocky Mountains. In griz country, I'd carry at least 44 Mag. Leave the 40S&W at home.

August 30, 2011, 03:26 PM	#22
RalphS Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 111	I have carried UDAP in Yellowstone a few years ago and I agree that it's a viable means of self defense. The problem with these discussions is that we don't have a lot of cases to study where people used bear spray or handguns to defend themselves against bears. There were two people killed in Yellowstone this year (one just happened) from bears, one person killed in the Olympic National Park from a mountain goat last year and 1 or 2 people killed in the Gallatin Forest last year from a bear. None of them had bear spray or guns. So, what do we learn from these cases? Nothing. The only case I know of is the one in Alaska where the guy was charged by an old, starving brown bear and he pulled out his Ruger Alaskan and started blasting away. If I recall correctly, he got off three shots before the revolver jammed because the bullets jumped crimp. The third shot stopped the bear.

August 30, 2011, 03:50 PM	#24
RalphS Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 111	Here's a guy who used a 357 against an Alaskan brown bear last year http://www.adn.com/2010/06/24/133952...2-attacks.html He fired a total of three shots and missed the bear.

August 30, 2011, 03:57 PM	#25
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I think this resolves the caliber debate - the misses with the .357 were totally ineffectual. If he would have missed using a larger caliber things would have been different. FBI testing showed misses with a .45 to be between .001% and .0015% more effective than misses with the .357 magnum. The .45 also shows up as a better round to miss with in Greg Ellifritz's studies.