anti-black bear

doctor_brevic · August 20, 2011, 01:31 PM

Hello, I live in a mountainous region of the us where black bear encounters are somewhat common. I was wondering what you guys thought to be the best firearm, caliber, platform in case one of these encounters goes awry. I currently believe in my REM 870 express 18" 6+1 no choke with 3" 00 buck. What do you think?

Rifleman1776 · August 20, 2011, 01:50 PM

The strangest part of your post is saying black bear encounters are common. We have bears where I live but they are rarely seen. Black bears are shy and elusive critters who prefer to avoid people.
But, your 870 with #3 should be an adequate discouragement.

mete · August 20, 2011, 05:17 PM

Marlin guide gun , 45-70 .
Rifleman is right .They spend almost all of their time looking for food .Try not to look like a ham sammich ,keep food away from your camp and you'll be OK. Lots of noise such as a loud whistle [Storm brand] ,compressed air horn etc, will usually deter them .
They often disappear before you see them ,or ignore you. Don't be paranoid.
More danger to you in the woods would be feral people or dogs or animals with rabies !

jmr40 · August 20, 2011, 05:58 PM

Buckshot is a huge no no with black bear. Slugs or most any rifle would be fine.

JACK308 · August 20, 2011, 06:39 PM

a marlin 45/70 loaded with 400 grains + bullet and a 44 mag loaded with 240 hard cast lead.

30-30remchester · August 20, 2011, 08:52 PM

I have heard bad results using buckshot against hard skull bones. An experenced big game hunter bounced 2 loads of 00 buck off the skull of a 100# leapord. While I believe it would be a fine killing round I have my doubts it would be a stopping round. You must remember that there are 9 soft round balls of 33 caliber traveling at 1200 fps. Round balls have poor penatration compared to elongated projectiles. The ballistics of each ball would compare to the 32 S&W Long cartridge. I dont know anyone who would consider the 32 S&W Long to be a stopping cartridge even if 9 shots were sent down range. Just a few points to ponder.

Gehrhard · August 20, 2011, 09:12 PM

Of course that's a fine load. Hell, you don't need the 3" for Blacks IMO. But, if you are using 3" anyway... There are buffered PLATED loads. Given the choice I would definitely use plated for any bear.

For Blacks I would use either 2-3/4" or 3" 00 Buck.

FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS
Federal Premium 12 Ga. 2 3/4 9 Pel. #00 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot

Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: P154
Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS
Gauge :12 GA
Type :Lead
Length :2 3/4
Ounces :9 Pellets
Shot Size :00 Buck
Muzzle Velocity :1325 fps
Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 50 Boxes Per Case
Drams :N/A

UPC: 029465001292

Browns? 3" 000. Yes, that's what I said!

FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS
Federal Premium 12 Ga. 3 Magnum 10 Pel. #000 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot

Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: P158
Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS
Gauge :12 GA
Type :Lead
Length :3
Ounces :10 Pellets
Shot Size :000 Buck
Muzzle Velocity :1225 fps
Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 50 Boxes Per Case
Drams :N/A

UPC: 029465001223

Well, if I had a 3-1/2" Mag gun I might choose those below if ya can find 'em. Slugs are preferred by many but the improved hit probability and multiple hits of HARD buckshot cannot be discounted. I know the 3" 000 are friggin' crushing.

Product Details & Specifications
FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS
Federal Premium 12 Ga. 3 1/2 18 Pel. #00 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot

Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: P135
Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS
Gauge :12 GA
Type :Lead
Length :3 1/2
Ounces :18 Pellets
Shot Size :00 Buck
Muzzle Velocity :1100 fps
Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 40 Boxes Per Case
Drams :N/A

UPC: 029465016623

alloy · August 20, 2011, 09:30 PM

Two nights ago around 10.30 I was walking the dog, she growled, I turned and a fairly large one was about 50 feet away, on the sidewalk under a lamp.
I went back inside.
Tore the dumpster apart, like usual.
Adidas.

Last year one ate the Doritos outta my truck.

357 Python · August 20, 2011, 10:36 PM

While that will certainly do the trick maybe you need something a little more portable that is easier to carry around while you are working outside. I would recommend something along the line of a single action Ruger in 44 Magnum or something similar. You can have the handgun on you while outside and not scare legitimate visitors. Most black bears I have seen tried to stay away from people as much as possible unless it is a mother with cubs. If so then watch out as she will do what she feels necessary to protect her cubs.

armoredman · August 20, 2011, 10:43 PM

Next time leave flamin hot Cheetohs...

alloy · August 20, 2011, 11:03 PM

Bears around here, that grew up around people, are something different than wild bears. They walk the same routes night after night, push in thru screen windows, smoke cigarettes. They really lose some kind of inhibitions over time.
I don't trust them, out in the woods you know the story...but watching one munch azaleas while a Doberman barks like a banshee, in broad daylight, inside of 20 feet....will change any opinion of them being elusive, or secretive.
They are curious, bold bordering on fearless, and too big to fool with.

Carry_24/7 · August 20, 2011, 11:15 PM

Man, Alloy; I think I'd rather face ghetto crackheads on the regular than what you got lurking around...

Those tracks are from a black bear? Any attacks on humans around there?

alloy · August 20, 2011, 11:23 PM

Not that I know of, but one was inside my neighbor's place once when they returned from dinner. Climbed up about 5 feet onto a balcony, and pushed thru a sliding screen door.
They get inside dumpsters almost nightly if they can get the bear latch open.
Mainly I see the same one I think, last year or maybe the year before she had 3 cubs that would wander around the parking lot.
They have been in/on the back of my truck a half dozen times. These things are something else, one day one is going to jump out of that dumpster.

Size 11 for rough scale. It's no grizzly but for a black bear, it's a wall hanger.

T. O'Heir · August 20, 2011, 11:44 PM

Buck shot of any size is unreliable. Use a slug. Mind you, a slug will not stop Yogi in his tracks either. And if he's under 100 yards away, you'll never be fast enough. He can cover 100 yards in under 6 seconds. 20 meters, never mind feet, in less than 2 seconds.
"...lose some kind of inhibitions..." They lose their fear of people. Yogi has no inhibitions.

alloy · August 20, 2011, 11:58 PM

Quote:

They lose their fear of people.

Do you think they grow up without ever having that fear if the mother acts that way? Because these really don't act normal.
We hunt bears...these are almost something else, compared to behavior I see in the woods. Like I mentioned...I don't trust them.

Alaska444 · August 21, 2011, 12:00 AM

Buck shot is for bucks. If you want to shoot a bear, better to have solid hard cast of your choice that can penetrate the hide, bones and get through thick muscle.

T. O'Heir · August 21, 2011, 12:32 AM

"...these really don't act normal..." What's 'normal' for a bear? Yogi has no natural predators other than people. He does nothing that doesn't involve instinct or learned from experience behaviour. He really isn't interested in you. Like Pepe le Pew, if you leave him alone, he'll leave you alone.
"...I don't trust them..." To do what? Be a wild animal?
Cindy doesn't teach her cubs to do anything but how and where to eat either. Dumps and dumpsters have food.
"...Buck shot is for bucks..." Buck shot is for fire fights in a phone booth and occasionally for jungle fighting. It's not reliable for bucks either.

TopherC · August 21, 2011, 02:02 AM

I have the same problem living in Colorado, up by the mountains. I carry a .45ACP Kahr PM45 or Sig P220 on me at all times, and break out the .44MAG Ruger Redhawk when I go places where I've had problems.

They always seem to come up on you though when you don't expect it (sleeping in your bivvy sack), or when taking a shot isn't practical (in the middle of a crowded campground). So far I've had three within 10ft, one of which was hostile, and haven't shot any of them. Hopefully you'll have better luck!

- Chris

Edit: Forgot to mention it, but I usually carry FMJ rounds, as I hope the extra penetration will help me if I need to kill one.

mete · August 21, 2011, 05:39 AM

Normal ? A bear in my area raided the dumpsters of restaurants - but only the Italian ones !!

jmr40 · August 21, 2011, 09:30 AM

This needs repeating DO NOT USE BUCKSHOT. Any size or load does not give anywhere near the needed penetration on a bear. Many places have outlawed its use against even 75 lb deer because it does not kill quickly enough. Buckshot is a fine choice for SD against humans, but anyone who would suggest it for bears simply does not know what they are talking about. At best you may deter the animal, but either way you are putting someone else in danger. You, or someone is now going to have to go into the bears backyard and track down a hurt, angry bear and finish him with a proper gun.

The gun you have with slugs is fine. Any shooting will be at very close range anyway. Most any hunting rifle .30 or larger would work as well. A good leveraction in 30-30, 44 mag, or 35 is probably as good as it gets. If I had a 45-70 or 444 I'd use it, but you don't have to have that much power and wouldn't suggest going out and buy one just for this purpose. 30-30's are everywhere and cheap. They have been killing black bear quite reliably for 106 years.

A proper handgun is an option. A 357 mag or 10mm with good loads is the minimum. Both 357 and 10mm have loads pushing 200gr hardcast bullets at 1300 fps. If I were using handgun I'd feel OK with either of these. Nothing wrong with 44 mag either, if you can shoot one well. I thing the really big 460 and 500 handguns are better suited for hunting and are a bit much for this. At the close ranges you would be shooting you don't need the extra power of these rounds.

Dead · August 21, 2011, 09:58 AM

I would say NO GO for buckshot myself! I had tried 10ga 3 1/2 inch federal premium 00buck at about 20yards against a 1950's chevy pickup truck hood that was at ~45 degree angle. NOT a single pellet went through the hood!

A 22LR will punch through it like it was not there, same for slugs.

This informal test really opened my eyes as I thought the 00buck would shred that thin metal.

Gehrhard · August 21, 2011, 04:17 PM

The one obvious truth here is...

...don't smoke!

Problem with single rounds is: you have to hit your target. And in the right place. And you may not get more than one chance. No, its big buckshot.

In Alaska it has been small .44 Mag handgun (hardcast Buffalo Bore) and short shotgun with 3" 000 plated buck. Blackbear area protection? .357 Mag handgun (hardcast Federal) and 2-3/4" 00 plated buck.

TylerD45ACP · August 21, 2011, 04:48 PM

I think the load is probably good. I would also however add some hard cast 12Gauge Slugs like Brenneke or something. In case you need that penetration I think it would be good to have. You could even load the last 3 in the tube with the slugs as the failure rounds.

Alaska444 · August 21, 2011, 07:15 PM

For those that keep advocating buck shot, do any of you have any story of anyone successfully defending against a bear with buck shot? I read and search bear stories just about every single day and I just cannot recall any stories of someone fending off a bear with a shotgun with buck shot. On the other hand, I can show you plenty of stories of hard cast bullets from hand guns or rifles or slugs from shotguns.

If folks keep advocating buck shot, let's start sharing the true results of this in real life. Sorry, but I just have not come across that as a successful defense in all of my reading put in place in real life. If someone has those stories, they would be good to hear. Until then, I truly do not know why people keep advocating for this when it is a great home defense remedy, but it just makes no sense when talking about big, furry critters with heavy bone and muscle you must penetrate first before getting to the vitals.

Thank you,

Alaska444

30-30remchester · August 21, 2011, 08:45 PM

I like ALASKA444,s response. Few people have any real world experence, me included. So many that have field experence, dont have it against the animal mentioned, and most have used 00 Buck on small deer.

August 20, 2011, 01:31 PM	#1
doctor_brevic Member Join Date: August 19, 2011 Posts: 74	anti-black bear Hello, I live in a mountainous region of the us where black bear encounters are somewhat common. I was wondering what you guys thought to be the best firearm, caliber, platform in case one of these encounters goes awry. I currently believe in my REM 870 express 18" 6+1 no choke with 3" 00 buck. What do you think?

August 20, 2011, 09:12 PM	#7
Gehrhard Junior member Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: East of the Missississippippi Posts: 675	Of course that's a fine load. Hell, you don't need the 3" for Blacks IMO. But, if you are using 3" anyway... There are buffered PLATED loads. Given the choice I would definitely use plated for any bear. For Blacks I would use either 2-3/4" or 3" 00 Buck. FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS Federal Premium 12 Ga. 2 3/4 9 Pel. #00 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits. SPECIFICATIONS: Mfg Item Num: P154 Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS Gauge :12 GA Type :Lead Length :2 3/4 Ounces :9 Pellets Shot Size :00 Buck Muzzle Velocity :1325 fps Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 50 Boxes Per Case Drams :N/A UPC: 029465001292 Browns? 3" 000. Yes, that's what I said! FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS Federal Premium 12 Ga. 3 Magnum 10 Pel. #000 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits. SPECIFICATIONS: Mfg Item Num: P158 Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS Gauge :12 GA Type :Lead Length :3 Ounces :10 Pellets Shot Size :000 Buck Muzzle Velocity :1225 fps Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 50 Boxes Per Case Drams :N/A UPC: 029465001223 Well, if I had a 3-1/2" Mag gun I might choose those below if ya can find 'em. Slugs are preferred by many but the improved hit probability and multiple hits of HARD buckshot cannot be discounted. I know the 3" 000 are friggin' crushing. Product Details & Specifications FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO VITAL SHOK BUCKSHOT LOADS Federal Premium 12 Ga. 3 1/2 18 Pel. #00 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits. SPECIFICATIONS: Mfg Item Num: P135 Category: AMMO SHOTSHELLS Gauge :12 GA Type :Lead Length :3 1/2 Ounces :18 Pellets Shot Size :00 Buck Muzzle Velocity :1100 fps Rounds/box :5 Rounds Per Box, 40 Boxes Per Case Drams :N/A UPC: 029465016623 Last edited by Gehrhard; August 20, 2011 at 10:10 PM.

August 21, 2011, 02:02 AM	#18
TopherC Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2011 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 11	I have the same problem living in Colorado, up by the mountains. I carry a .45ACP Kahr PM45 or Sig P220 on me at all times, and break out the .44MAG Ruger Redhawk when I go places where I've had problems. They always seem to come up on you though when you don't expect it (sleeping in your bivvy sack), or when taking a shot isn't practical (in the middle of a crowded campground). So far I've had three within 10ft, one of which was hostile, and haven't shot any of them. Hopefully you'll have better luck! - Chris Edit: Forgot to mention it, but I usually carry FMJ rounds, as I hope the extra penetration will help me if I need to kill one. Last edited by TopherC; August 21, 2011 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Added note on calibers.

August 20, 2011, 01:50 PM	#2
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	The strangest part of your post is saying black bear encounters are common. We have bears where I live but they are rarely seen. Black bears are shy and elusive critters who prefer to avoid people. But, your 870 with #3 should be an adequate discouragement.

August 20, 2011, 05:17 PM	#3
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Marlin guide gun , 45-70 . Rifleman is right .They spend almost all of their time looking for food .Try not to look like a ham sammich ,keep food away from your camp and you'll be OK. Lots of noise such as a loud whistle [Storm brand] ,compressed air horn etc, will usually deter them . They often disappear before you see them ,or ignore you. Don't be paranoid. More danger to you in the woods would be feral people or dogs or animals with rabies !

August 20, 2011, 05:58 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,973	Buckshot is a huge no no with black bear. Slugs or most any rifle would be fine.

August 20, 2011, 06:39 PM	#5
JACK308 Junior member Join Date: July 10, 2011 Posts: 377	a marlin 45/70 loaded with 400 grains + bullet and a 44 mag loaded with 240 hard cast lead.

August 20, 2011, 08:52 PM	#6
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	I have heard bad results using buckshot against hard skull bones. An experenced big game hunter bounced 2 loads of 00 buck off the skull of a 100# leapord. While I believe it would be a fine killing round I have my doubts it would be a stopping round. You must remember that there are 9 soft round balls of 33 caliber traveling at 1200 fps. Round balls have poor penatration compared to elongated projectiles. The ballistics of each ball would compare to the 32 S&W Long cartridge. I dont know anyone who would consider the 32 S&W Long to be a stopping cartridge even if 9 shots were sent down range. Just a few points to ponder.

August 20, 2011, 10:36 PM	#9
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	While that will certainly do the trick maybe you need something a little more portable that is easier to carry around while you are working outside. I would recommend something along the line of a single action Ruger in 44 Magnum or something similar. You can have the handgun on you while outside and not scare legitimate visitors. Most black bears I have seen tried to stay away from people as much as possible unless it is a mother with cubs. If so then watch out as she will do what she feels necessary to protect her cubs.

August 20, 2011, 10:43 PM	#10
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,480	Next time leave flamin hot Cheetohs...

August 20, 2011, 11:15 PM	#12
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	Man, Alloy; I think I'd rather face ghetto crackheads on the regular than what you got lurking around... Those tracks are from a black bear? Any attacks on humans around there?

August 20, 2011, 11:44 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Buck shot of any size is unreliable. Use a slug. Mind you, a slug will not stop Yogi in his tracks either. And if he's under 100 yards away, you'll never be fast enough. He can cover 100 yards in under 6 seconds. 20 meters, never mind feet, in less than 2 seconds. "...lose some kind of inhibitions..." They lose their fear of people. Yogi has no inhibitions.

August 21, 2011, 12:00 AM	#16
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	Buck shot is for bucks. If you want to shoot a bear, better to have solid hard cast of your choice that can penetrate the hide, bones and get through thick muscle.

August 21, 2011, 12:32 AM	#17
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...these really don't act normal..." What's 'normal' for a bear? Yogi has no natural predators other than people. He does nothing that doesn't involve instinct or learned from experience behaviour. He really isn't interested in you. Like Pepe le Pew, if you leave him alone, he'll leave you alone. "...I don't trust them..." To do what? Be a wild animal? Cindy doesn't teach her cubs to do anything but how and where to eat either. Dumps and dumpsters have food. "...Buck shot is for bucks..." Buck shot is for fire fights in a phone booth and occasionally for jungle fighting. It's not reliable for bucks either.

August 21, 2011, 05:39 AM	#19
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Normal ? A bear in my area raided the dumpsters of restaurants - but only the Italian ones !!

August 21, 2011, 09:30 AM	#20
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,973	This needs repeating DO NOT USE BUCKSHOT. Any size or load does not give anywhere near the needed penetration on a bear. Many places have outlawed its use against even 75 lb deer because it does not kill quickly enough. Buckshot is a fine choice for SD against humans, but anyone who would suggest it for bears simply does not know what they are talking about. At best you may deter the animal, but either way you are putting someone else in danger. You, or someone is now going to have to go into the bears backyard and track down a hurt, angry bear and finish him with a proper gun. The gun you have with slugs is fine. Any shooting will be at very close range anyway. Most any hunting rifle .30 or larger would work as well. A good leveraction in 30-30, 44 mag, or 35 is probably as good as it gets. If I had a 45-70 or 444 I'd use it, but you don't have to have that much power and wouldn't suggest going out and buy one just for this purpose. 30-30's are everywhere and cheap. They have been killing black bear quite reliably for 106 years. A proper handgun is an option. A 357 mag or 10mm with good loads is the minimum. Both 357 and 10mm have loads pushing 200gr hardcast bullets at 1300 fps. If I were using handgun I'd feel OK with either of these. Nothing wrong with 44 mag either, if you can shoot one well. I thing the really big 460 and 500 handguns are better suited for hunting and are a bit much for this. At the close ranges you would be shooting you don't need the extra power of these rounds.

August 21, 2011, 09:58 AM	#21
Dead Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2000 Location: AoW Land, USA Posts: 1,968	I would say NO GO for buckshot myself! I had tried 10ga 3 1/2 inch federal premium 00buck at about 20yards against a 1950's chevy pickup truck hood that was at ~45 degree angle. NOT a single pellet went through the hood! A 22LR will punch through it like it was not there, same for slugs. This informal test really opened my eyes as I thought the 00buck would shred that thin metal.

August 21, 2011, 04:17 PM	#22
Gehrhard Junior member Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: East of the Missississippippi Posts: 675	The one obvious truth here is... ...don't smoke! Problem with single rounds is: you have to hit your target. And in the right place. And you may not get more than one chance. No, its big buckshot. In Alaska it has been small .44 Mag handgun (hardcast Buffalo Bore) and short shotgun with 3" 000 plated buck. Blackbear area protection? .357 Mag handgun (hardcast Federal) and 2-3/4" 00 plated buck.

August 21, 2011, 04:48 PM	#23
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	I think the load is probably good. I would also however add some hard cast 12Gauge Slugs like Brenneke or something. In case you need that penetration I think it would be good to have. You could even load the last 3 in the tube with the slugs as the failure rounds.

August 21, 2011, 07:15 PM	#24
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	For those that keep advocating buck shot, do any of you have any story of anyone successfully defending against a bear with buck shot? I read and search bear stories just about every single day and I just cannot recall any stories of someone fending off a bear with a shotgun with buck shot. On the other hand, I can show you plenty of stories of hard cast bullets from hand guns or rifles or slugs from shotguns. If folks keep advocating buck shot, let's start sharing the true results of this in real life. Sorry, but I just have not come across that as a successful defense in all of my reading put in place in real life. If someone has those stories, they would be good to hear. Until then, I truly do not know why people keep advocating for this when it is a great home defense remedy, but it just makes no sense when talking about big, furry critters with heavy bone and muscle you must penetrate first before getting to the vitals. Thank you, Alaska444

August 21, 2011, 08:45 PM	#25
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	I like ALASKA444,s response. Few people have any real world experence, me included. So many that have field experence, dont have it against the animal mentioned, and most have used 00 Buck on small deer.