P99 vs. SW99

[texstinger]

Beyond any personal dislike or boycotting of S&W, why does it seem so many favor the W over the S&W? What specifically (mechanically or whatever) makes any owners out here think it is better. Not saying it isn't , just want to know it there are real differences.
Many thanks.

[blades67]

When I bought my Walther P99 it was because the S&W99 that was in the case next to it didn't have as nice a trigger. No politics, just the better trigger made the decision easy.

[adept]

you should search the archives and find the numerous threads on this subject.

the main difference is in the manufacturing of the parts. in order to be sold, each firearm that comes out of the german plants MUST go to a proof house to be tested. when they pass the testing they are marked as such. i believe that the s&w varity are batch tested...couple pulled out of each batch made and tested...if they pass the lot passes.

i got to do a non-firing comparasion of the s&w .40 and my p99 9mm. the s&w felt "loose", and i didn't like the texturing on the frame.


i wish you luck

Adept

[fastbolt]

Beyond the "cosmetic" and ergonomic differences ... both S&W and Walther have been making quality firearns for a long time. S&W required certain differences made in the molded frames for the SW line. The changes were intended to satisfy the preferences expressed by American law enforcement and civilian shooters.

It's interesting that so many folks make such a point of the German proof house markings, though ...

Walther uses the heat induction method to zone temper only specific parts of the P99 barrel. The slide is carbon steel with a Melonite treatment (Glock calls their similar treatment Tennifer).

S&W uses forged stainless steel for the SW99 barrels, and then double heat treats the entire barrel. The slides are stainless steel. Both barrels & slides receive a Melonite treatment and are blackened.

Both are excellent pistols.

[tcurtis]

S&W proof tests each pistol.

The frame and frame parts for each pistol are made by Walther in Germany. I find it hard to believe that the Germans are making the parts destined for SW99 pistols to a lesser standard. Those assembling the sear housings and such probably don't even know which type of pistol they're going into.

I've had the opportunity to handle and fire both. I happen to have an SW99 in .40 and would put it up against any P99 any day. It has proven superbly accurate with any ammo I've fed it, 100% reliable, and easy and comfortable to shoot.

I am not denegrating the P99 at all. I think they're just as good as the SW99s. Purely a matter of personal preference.

Good luck!

Tom C

[NMGlocker]

Walther uses the heat induction method to zone temper only specific parts of the P99 barrel.

Never heard that one, please explain.

The slide is carbon steel with a Melonite treatment (Glock calls their similar treatment Tennifer).

Wrong, the Walther slide is carbon steel, but the finish is Tenifer.
look here for specs. http://www.walther-usa.com/p99_specs.htm
The SW99 is Melonite over stainless.

To answer the original question.
The overall fit and finish of the Walther, to my eyes/hands, is superior to the S&W. The S&W got a bad wrap on the NJSP fiasco as well. And S&W screwed up a batch of "bastardized" P99 .40's early on. I think all this, as well as S&W's Sigma "history" has given S&W a bad reputation among many people. And why buy a knockoff when you can have the original, especially when the prices are so close.

[fastbolt]

Heat induction is essentially using heat to surface harden the steel. Walther does this to specific spots of their barrels. This works very well for them.

S&W has one of the most advanced heat treating facilities on the east coast, and simply uses their facilities to their best advantage to double heat treat and temper their own forged stainless steel barrels. They do this with all of their pistol barrels, not just the ones used in SW99 series.

This isn't a competition between the companies. Remember, they're in business together to provide the American consumer, and law enforcement market, with high quality pistols in these similar product lines.

Oops ... sorry about the tennifer vs. melonite wording. You're right ... in Europe the process is referred to by the name tennifer, while the same chemical process performed here in the US is called melonite. It's the same chemical process and type of metal treatment. The treatment is absorbed into the surface of the metal about .003", and it's very, very hard. It's also colorless, although a coloring agent is introduced and applied to the metal by the manufacturers that use the process. Just because the coloring agent may wear away, though, doesn't mean the tennifer or melonite treatment has worn away.

Tcurtis is right about the parts, by the way ... Walther ships the frames and bags of frame parts over here. The parts are the same. The S&W isn't a lesser quality Walther. The magazines for both pistols are supplied by MecGar, who also provides magazines for Sig & Beretta.

I've fired a few thousand rounds through a personally owned SW99, and an issued SW99, in .40 ... and a couple thousand rounds through a couple of 9mm versions. I have a friend that has fired thousands of rounds through one of each model. He couldn't decide so he bought both.

These are great pistols, no matter which manufacturer you choose.

[fastbolt]

Okay, I've read a lot recently, here and elsewhere, about the NJSP experience with SW99's ...

Here's some information to consider ...

The pistols involved numbered 300.

NJSP requested a specific modification to the slides, namely, they didn't want the decocker button. A special slide was made for them which lacked the cut-out for the decocker.

They claimed they were experiencing malfunctions. S&W was unable to make the pistols malfunction, but they took the safety concerns of the agency very seriously. So seriously that they sent some of the pistols to H.G. White Labs for independant testing, along with thousands and thousands of rounds of all kinds of ammunition, at their own expense.

The results of the independant testing showed the pistols had less than a 0.5% malfunction rate. That's right ... less than 0.5% malfunction rate. If I recall correctly, each pistol tested was fired for 10,000 rounds using the different types of ammunition.

Another pistol was selected from another manufacturer.

You might ask why S&W wouldn't shout this sort of thing from the roof tops ... Well, can anybody ever remember reading something from S&W that was derogatory of another manufacturer, or denigrated some agency for not selecting their product? Probably not. I certainly haven't ...

And before you mention the HUD or Boston agreements ... those are recently undone and history now, by the way ...

[BK-BHP/1911]

Here in Canada it's German made Walthers all the way. My gun dealer told me Walther USA even refused to make a 106mm barrel to make it legal for Canadians to own with our silly draconian 'minimum' barrel length ( a bit over 4.1") law. Walther (in Germany)_ did make a 106mm barrel for us so in Canada we have access to real German made Walthers with NO hint of any S&W markings at all!!!!!

Works for everyone!!!!

I simply love the fact my P99 has all Walther markings and the test target was shot by a German fellow too!!!

[NMGlocker]

Whether or not it was S&W fault that the NJSP contract was a flop (it wasn't), it still looks bad for them. A firearms manufacturers reputation, especially for reliability, should be defended at all costs IMO.

NJSP requested a specific modification to the slides, namely, they didn't want the decocker button. A special slide was made for them which lacked the cut-out for the decocker.

So how did they plan on disassembly of the P99, since it must be decocked first?

[fastbolt]

As I understand it, NJSP had originally planned on carrying the weapons in the single action mode, so it wasn't anticipated decocking to the double action mode was going to be necessary ... and presumably they'd still have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber to decock for field stripping. S&W was apparently asked to provide still other slides at some point ... guess why ...

As far as defending their reputation ...

Their reputation extends beyond the firearms market, and it's a great reputation.

As far as the firearms market, well, they have an excellent reputation. They took some bad press for the "Agreements" fiasco, but that's now over with ... and besides, now S&W is an American owned company once again.

When it comes to "rumor control" you just don't want to settle to the level of folks throwing mud. Look how fast opinions fly in the press, media, internet, and word of mouth. Do you want to make firearms, or run around trying to quell every contrary opinion expressed by someone? How can a manufacturer fight the brushfires of public opinion, whether right or wrong?

Politics and marketing are a fact of life ... it's just how you get involved and how you conduct yourself that is within your control ...

Why do you suppose it's not unheard of for L/E folks to be hired by various firearms manufacturers upon retirement ... and just coincidently, after their agency may have awarded that manufacturer a large contract?

How about if a manufacturer were to offer an agency the chance to receive new weapons in trade for existing issued weapons, without the agency paying any additional cost beyond allowing the new manufacturer to have the existing ones?

How about a manufacturer offering weapons at a loss to obtain a noteworthy contract?

Advertising with a purpose ... but S&W tries to conduct itself conservatively and in good business practices. They rightfully believe this doesn't include hurling mud at other manufacturers. Instead, they rely upon advertising the merits of their product.

Besides, the contract bid a manufacturer lost today, may be the bid they win another time in the future. Look how often many agencies change weapons and manufacturers. Win some, loose some ... and round and round.

This isn't a sensitive subject with me ... honest!

[JohnH]

Fastbolt, thanks for the informative post. I've read a lot of posts denigrating the SW99 over the last couple of years and really wondered how the quality could vary so greatly when the two pistols are jointly manufactured. I guess I'm in a minority, but I find the SW99 to be the better looking pistol. Tried one for size at the last gun show and was very impressed. The price was right also. Should have bought it. Thanks again, JohnH

[Waxahachie1]

I own a p99 in .40 and 9mm.I also purchased a new sw99 in 9mm and promptly sold it.The slide was looser.The rear sight moved around and it didn't shoot for beans.This was my experience but you may have better luck.By the way the p99's are very accurate.

[Vanguard.45]

1. S&W actually changed the frame that was designed for the P99 by the Olympic gripsmith Morino of Italy. A brilliant move on S&W's part.

2. S&W altered the slide shape so that the S&W99 actually looks more like the Sigma series pistols; this way we can all be reminded of just how fantastic that series of pistol has been for the S&W reputation (Need I say more?)

3. James Bond carries the P99 (Okay, I know, that's not a very good reason, but at least a P99 owner can say "It's the gun James Bond carries!)

4. S&W guns are made "safer" than the Walther guns, but mommy, I don't want my guns safer!

and finally. . . .
5. Okay, they're pretty much the same gun. . . pretty much.

My advice? Get a 1911! Of course I would say that!

[fastbolt]

S&W only changed the 99 frame because of American shooter input and marketing survey studies, as it was explained to me by a contact in S&W.

It seems American shooters involved in "action" shooting sports, L/E, and defensive shooters wanted a few things done differently. Walther fans may find this hard to believe, but marketing is catering to the needs , perceived or otherwise, of the market you're doing business in, and some folks prefered other ergonomic criteria in the pistols.

We've seen this phenomena before with the relocation of the magazine release from the traditional European butt release to the more "traditional & popular with American shooters" ... can you say J. Browning? ... location behind the trigger guard. European manufacturers apparently adopted this practice in deference to American markets. Remember when the P-220 pistol was first offered with the "American" magazine release?

One of the preferences S&W listened to was that the bottom/front of the grip didn't expose the front of the magazine base pad sufficiently ... sufficiently to allow it to be easily pulled from the pistol should it not fall free. The SW99 has more of it exposed.

American shooters apparently liked a more neutral shooting thumb position, so the "shelf" on the left side of the grip frame, located behind the magazine release, was raised. Persionally, I prefer the lower Walther version, as I find a lower thumb position helps me remember not to position my thumb too close to the slide stop. That was fine with Browning designs, but as many Glock shooters have noticed early on, your thumb can drift upward and engage the slide stop prematurely.

The "accessory" rail is different between the 2 frames in how the accessories snap onto the rails. Comparing the 2 styles, some L/E folks have noticed the one chosen for the American models offers a more secure attachment in some less-than-ideal circumstances. I've also heard of this from people I know, that have tested both designs. Having snapped on similar units on both designs, the American style does seem to mount & unmount easier.

Yes, one of the reasons the slide shape was chosen was because it was easy to machine, similar to the Sigma, while still incorporating the design of the Walther striker & decoker mechanism. This slide shape and design, though, does offer a substantial amount of strength, and sufficient slide mass to lessen the impact of the .40 effects on the pistol. Hey, the Walther slide is an eye-catcher, no two ways about it. The S&W slide is merely functional and of great strength.

The trigger pin in the trigger module was changed by S&W to prevent the possibility of the trigger pin "walking". I understand this upgrade also occurred in the Walther. (We had some federal L/E types use our range that complained about this problem when they were testing some early model Walther P99's.)

I have no idea how the S&W pistols can be considered any "safer" than their German counterparts, or the German pistols "less safe". The mechanisms and parts of the fire control system are identical. (The S&W version may be offered in the future with a magazine disconnect as an option, at the request of some L/E agencies.)

Who cares what some movie star hero carries? Bond originally carried a mouse gun, anyway ...

If you really like 1911's, you should try the S&W 945. Wow! One armorer that carries one, and has been a Colt armorer for many, many years, told me the Performance Center 945 pretty much will consistently shoot 3" groups at 50 yards. The pistol may be capable of that, but for me? Well, maybe if I used a rifle ...

[GunGeek]

The frame and frame parts for each pistol are made by Walther in Germany. I find it hard to believe that the Germans are making the parts destined for SW99 pistols to a lesser standard. Those assembling the sear housings and such probably don't even know which type of pistol they're going into.

No I doupt it is made to a lesser standard, but there are notable difrences in the frame. Accesory rail, grip, mag well have al been mentioned.

P.S. anyone know of any nice slide mounted lights for the P99? simular in size to an M3?

[denfoote]

First, the SW99 is a clone. An imperfect one, but a clone none the less. Why pay homage to a clone, when the original is available!!! Now, I could see it if, as with the Browning HP, the clone was less expensive, but such is not the case with the Slick & Willy!!!! Walther should pull the plug on this abomination!!! :barf:

[tcurtis]

No I doupt it is made to a lesser standard, but there are notable difrences in the frame. Accesory rail, grip, mag well have al been mentioned.

Yes, and these are largely cosmetic. My point was that there is no functional difference between the two pistols. The frame differences mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with how well the pistol functions. And, as has been pointed out, the light rail on the SW99 is superior to the one incorporated on the P99 (which, of course, is a matter of opinion-and a feature that has absolutely nothing to do with the functional reliability of the gun).

fastbolt-good explanation of the NJSP guns. It is also interesting to note that a seperate instruction manual exists for the "NJSP" version (was and I assume still is available on the S&W web site). A flakey manual of arms to be sure, but that's what NJSP wanted (they thought). My understanding is that these modifications went against S&W recommendations, but NJSP insisted and the customer is always right. When they found out that it wasn't going to work out like they had planned, amazingly enough, the guns started having "reliability problems". An excellent way to bail out of a many hundreds-of-thousands of dollars contract for a bunch of pistols that require a goofy manual of arms that is the result of a modification made at your insistence against the manufacturer's recommendation.

I guess if I had to explain that to the Governor or legislature my guns would start having "reliability problems" too.

Tom C

[P-99er]

What is the difference between Mercedes and Chevrolet or Ford.

Quality craftsmanship.

My German P99 is a lot smoother than the SW99. Working the action on both will show the difference.

SW has never made semi-auto's very well.