Medical Questioning about Guns?

[Winston]

My wife took my son to the Doctor today for routine stuff. The Doctor asked non medical questions:

1. Do you have guns in the house?
2. Are they locked?
3. I reccomend this and that lock safe.
4. Have you received gun safety training.
5. I reccomend that you do.

Of course this all goes into a record. Apparently
the American Medical Association feels duty bound to pry into gun ownership issues and keep records.


What's up with that? Is there legal recourse to take that info
out of a medical record?

[Standing Wolf]

My reply would be, "Do you mean to tell me you don't have firearms? I'm going to have to find a doctor with more common sense."

[bastiat]

click this link:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=38757

[DeputyVaughn]

When my doctor ask me to strip down for one of those little gowns, my first question is where can I lock up my gun? I make him give me a cabinet and the key thereto to hold my gun while I'm there. Drives him crazy.

Scott

[TheBluesMan]

Q. Do you have guns in the house?

A. Doctor, do you know the definition of "boundary violation?" I know the definition very well, and if you don't stop this line of questioning, I will not only find a new doctor, I will also report you and your practice to every governing authority that I can think of.

[Marko Kloos]

Risk Management Advice to Physicians and Malpractice Insurance Providers: Don't Borrow Trouble.

(c) 2001 by Joe Horn
e-mail: [email protected]

One of the best games in town is litigation, and litigating against physicians is even more popular (and more successful) than suing gun manufacturers. Physicians and their malpractice insurance carriers are well aware that litigators are constantly looking for new opportunities to sue. Let's talk about one of those new areas of liability exposure.

Nowadays, many physicians and other health care providers are engaging in the very risky, well intentioned, albeit naive and politically inspired business of asking their patients about ownership, maintenance and storage of firearms in the home, and even suggesting removal of those firearms from the home. Some could argue that this is a "boundary violation," and it probably is, but there is another very valid reason why these professionals should NOT engage in this practice -- MASSIVE LIABILITY.

Physicians are licensed and certified in the practice of medicine, the treatment of illnesses and injuries, and in preventative activities. They may advise or answer questions about those issues. However, when physicians give advice about firearms safety in the home, without certification in that field, and without physically INSPECTING that particular home and those particular firearms, they are functioning outside the practice of medicine. Furthermore, if they fail to review the gamut of safety issues in the home, such as those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, and on and on, well, you get the drift. A litigator could easily accuse that physician of being NEGLIGENT for not covering whichever one of those things that ultimately led to the death or injury of a child or any one in the family or even a visitor to the patient's home. Why open the door to civil liability?

To engage in Home Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in home safety and Risk Management and to concentrate on one small politically correct area, i.e., firearms to the neglect of ALL of the other safety issues in the modern home, is to invite a lawsuit because the safety counselor, (Physician) Knew, Could have known or Should have known that there were other dangers to the occupants of that house more immediate than firearms. Things like swimming pools, buckets of water, and chemicals in homes are involved in the death or injury of many more children than accidental firearms discharge [ Source: CDC.] Firearms are a statistically small, nearly negligible fraction of the items involved in home injuries. Physicians SHOULD know that. So, why all of a sudden do some physicians consider themselves to be firearms and home safety experts? Where is their concern for all the other home safety issues that they DON'T cover with their patients? If you are going to counsel in any aspect of home safety, you had better be certified in that subject and cover *all* aspects of home safety, not just the politically popular ones.

Once physicians start down this path of home safety counseling, they are completely on their own. A review of their medical malpractice insurance will reveal that if they engage in an activity for which they are not certified, the carrier will not cover them if (or when) they are sued.

Consider a physician asking the following questions of his or her malpractice insurance carrier:

One of my patients is suing me for NOT warning them that furniture polish was poisonous and their child drank it and died. I only warned them about firearms, drugs and alcohol. Am I covered for counseling patients about firearms safety while not mentioning and giving preventative advice about all the other dangers in the home, and doing so without formal training or certification in any aspect of home safety risk management? You know their answer.

How much training and certification do I need to become a Home Safety Expert Doctor? They will tell you that you are either a pediatrician or you are the National Safety Council. But, you don't have certification to do the National Safety Council's job for them.

Homeowners and parents are civilly or criminally responsible for the safety or lack thereof in their homes. My advice to physicians is to not borrow trouble by presuming to be able to dispense safety advice outside your area of expertise: the practice of medicine. Your insurance carrier will love you if you simply treat injuries and illnesses, dispense advice on how to care for sick or injured persons, manage sanitation problems and try to prevent disease, but stay out of the Risk Management business unless you are trained and certified to do it. For example, E.R. doctors do not tell accident victims how to drive safely.

Now, let's discuss the very serious issues involving the lawful possession and use of firearms for self and home defense, and the danger and liabilities associated with advising patients to severely encumber the firearm(s) with locked storage, or advising the patient to remove them entirely. Patient X is told by Doctor Y to remove or lock up a firearm so it is not accessible for self and home defense. Patient X, does as counseled and has no firearm available at closehand. Subsequently, patient is then the victim of a home invasion and calls 911, but the police are buried in calls and don't arrive for 20 minutes during which time Patient X is raped, robbed and murdered. Anyone can see the liability issue here, particularly Risk Management specialists and liability insurance carriers.

It's just a matter of *when* and not *if* this will happen. Sooner or later, it will - if a home invasion takes place and Patient X takes Doctor Y's advice.

Now, imagine what follows this horrendous but common event. Who is to blame? The perpetrator is long gone, and even so, the Plaintiff's litigator will state that the perpetrator could have been neutralized by the appropriate lawful defensive use of a firearm, which *had* been in the home, but was no longer available to the deceased/injured because he/she followed a Physician's *expert* advice to render him/herself and his/her home defenseless against violent crime

The Litigator will further argue that the Physician Knew, Could have known, Should have known that removing a firearm from use for home defense would result in harm to the patient if and when a crime was committed against the patient in the home, as any reasonable person would have surmised.

If one acknowledges the already dangerous general liability of home safety counseling and then adds the very risky practice of advising patients to disarm themselves in the face of the reality of violent crime daily perpetrated against home owners, condo and apartment tenants, it is apparent that the Physician is placing him/herself in a very risky position for suit.

It is my strong recommendation to Malpractice Carriers and those Physicians they insure to strictly avoid this high risk practice and reserve counseling for the area of expertise in which they are certified: Medicine. In my professional opinion, this is an emotionally charged political issue that Physicians and their Carriers should not be manipulated for whatever well-intentioned reason into taking the risk, which is considerable......

Physicians in doubt of the veracity of what I've said are encouraged to call their carriers and ask them what they currently cover, and to ask if this new counseling policy is covered under the existing policy. We already know what they will say: Don't borrow trouble.
***

Since retiring from the LA County Sheriff's Department, Mr. Horn has provided Risk Management and related issue Human resource consulting. Among other firms, he has consulted to IBM, Gates Lear jet, National Semiconductor, and Pinkerton International Security and Protection Services.
Contact Joe Horn by e-mail: [email protected]

[Hkmp5sd]

My doctor has no doubts as to my ownership of guns, since he's seen it many times over the last 15 years during my office visits. My dentist is even a hunter.

[Karanas]

Doctor, I appreciate your concern for the safety of my family, but if you don't mind, I have a few questions I'd like to ask YOU:

1. How many malpractice lawsuits have been filed against you?
2. How many have you:
A. Won?
B. Lost?
C. Settled out of court?
3. How many of your patients have died while under your care in the last year?
4. How many of your patients have left you for another doctor in that same period?
5. Who is your insurer?
6. How much liability insurance do you carry?
7. Do you receive any compensation from drug companies for prescribing their products?
8. Do you receive any compensation from other doctors, labs or medical services for referrals to their businesses?
9. Have you or any of your staff ever been charged with violating any of the laws concerning the use or dispensation of any of the controlled drugs you have access to?
10. Is that diploma on your wall real?

[jimsbowies]

Don't ask...don't tell?


Or you could use the old "stick it up your a _ _ Doc" trick as well...though that could backfire on ya while he's doing surgery..

So.....new Doc seems in order to me.....

[Cactus]

My doctor already knows I have guns. Every year when I go in for my physical, we lie to each other about how we did hunting last fall!

[40ozflatfoot]

Karanas, you forgot one:

11. Did you take the Hippocratic Oath before you became a licensed physician?

[Waitone]

Don't tolerate it.

1. Tell you doctor you object to his questions. Tell him you will inform your state Medical ethics organization (or whatever groups exist to monitor physician performance). Tell you doctor you will find another physician because of his intrusiveness.

2. Lodge a formal complaint with said board.

3. Find another doctor who does not ask intrusive questions.

4. Transfer your business and records to the new doctor.

Such medical behavior will stop when the cost of that behavior becomes too high.

[lonegunman]

This question has been knocked around a lot before, and I will tell you how to deal with it.

First, understand that I am a physician, a board certified general/vascular surgeon. As I have said before, organized medicine in general is a very leftist-dominated field, and the leaders do not often reflect the views of the rank and file on most social issues. Most physicians dont even know the political views of organizations like the AMA. Physicians cling to organized medicine, however, primarily because of the clout these organizations have in Washington, lobbying congress on insurance/medicare/medicaid issues that affect physician earnings. Most physicians biggest concern is diminishing income levels, even more so than rising malpractice claims.

And therein, my friends, lies the answer to how to deal with this problem. Very politely, and without any more emotion than necessary, inform the physician that you do not think that information is relevant to the problem, and tell him you think he is pushing a political agenda by even asking. Then tell him his competition just got a new patient, and leave, never to return.

Physicians are in constant competition with each other for new patients. I assure you that if a physician begins losing patients because of asking those questions, he will quickly stop!

Try to avoid emotion. If a physician gets the idea you may be hostile, he may be able to misconstrue that into a nice visit from the Dept of Family services.

Now as far as whether or not such a question constitutes "malpractice", I doubt it would. "Malpractice" is not determined by whether or not a physician is an expert, or even actually knows what he is doing. It is determined by whether or not he has strayed from a vague term called the "standard of care". Guess who determines what the "Standard of care" is? Other physicians, as guided by organized medicine. In other words, if all pediatricians ask the question "Do you own guns?", then that is standard of care, and so the one who doesnt ask is actually breaching the standard.

Filing complaints with boards and licensing authorities will take months, generate a lot of paperwork, and accomplish nothing. The physician will likely never even know a complaint was filed.

Finally, someone mentioned asking the Dr if he had ever been sued, etc. If you really want to know, I think that info is already online. I dont remember the website, but I think there is a federally created national clearing house for that info. Dont ask your physician that, it will just make you look confrontational, he will document that, and may have a potential reason to have a social worker come see you.

[Moved2Texas]

My two year old son’s pediatrician has not asked the gun question (yet) but how can I find out if she will? I wish there was a list of gun-friendly doctors. I would hate to give her my business for a few more years and then have her ask the question. Is there an appropriate way to ask a doctor what her policy is before she brings it up?

Is there a list of gun-friendly doctors somewhere? Would there be any legal issues with starting a website listing doctors who had asked the gun question so people can avoid them ahead of time? How about sending out a survey and listing responses on a website?

[Winston]

Lonegunman,

Let me get this. I have to be intimidated by my physician just
because I dared to show emotion? He might tattle to the dept
of family services. Please!!! If a physician can't handle
human emotions then why are the practicing.

I find that the height of arrogance.

[jimpeel]

When they ask you a personal question that has no medical value simply answer the question with a question.

DOC: Do you own any firearms?

YOU: How long is your penis?

DOC: I don't think that is any of your business.

YOU: Bingo!

[lonegunman]

Winston...

No, if you want to go ahead and fly off the handle when you are asked that question. Cuss him out, cuss his staff out, tear the place up, and piss on his diploma.

Just remember, while this will make you feel better, it will only serve to justify asking the question in his mind. He will conclude that you are at best a hothead, and at worst crazy. This will be documented in your medical record.

I dont think you are being "intimidated" if you tell him that it is none of his business, and leave. In fact, it looks to me quite the contrary, as you have paid him the ultimate insult by refusing to accept care from him.

To me, just asking the question "Do you own any guns" displays arrogance. But I assure you any physician who asks that question would have no qualms about turning you over to authorities if they think they have a reason.

[Winston]

Fine,

I turn him into the "authorities", whoever "they are".
Is there a presumed "guilt" just on the patients part because
there was a "fender bender"? Why doesn't the doctor just
turn on a tape recorder during any patient interaction, better
yet a video tape, and hand over any patient whom seems
to fall under a "Mcarthy" criteria to the "authorities"

So much for doctor/patient trust. Should we have a court
transcriber to indenpendently record verbal and non-verbal
content, complete with interpretation. Maybe the doctor
should be handed over to the authorities for asking the question.
After all he has your home address. Maybe he's casing the
joint for a home invasion to get your guns.

Looks like the scales of justice need some adjustment, eh?

[OJ]

I second everything lonegunman said. I am a retired surgeon - general, thoracic, and vascular also.

It is my impression that something less than a third of practicing physicians are AMA members. Having spent a couple of terms on our state BOD, I came to the conclusion the BOD set policy -- but that was based on the issues presented to us by our full time paid staff and the decisions were made based on info the full time paid staff furnished us with.

It was clear to me who was really setting policy. Lonegunman is correct in that most busy physicians have their hands full with problems that defy solving. It's hard to read the writing on the wall when your back's against it.

His advice to state your objections and change physicians is the best answer, though. Anything else will only produce frustrations and no help.

[4V50 Gary]

If my doc asked me about guns, I'd ask him if I my time was limited because I'd would rather discuss my personal health issues as opposed to my hobbies, sports, intellectual pursuits (learning about guns is a serious thing - really) or work related business (other than lead poisoning).