don't think modern .380 is effective?

[dreamweaver]

this evening i was out walking my 6 mo old lab(rascal). part training, part fun at sunset. her mother is a champion bird dog.
about a half mile from the house, on my property, rascal got spooked. less than a minute later 5 dogs charged out of the brush on the right. they went straight for rascal and the lead dog grabbed it by the neck.
i had a sig 238 in my back pocket, but by the time i got it out the lead dog had killed rascal and the other dogs were running in. found out after that the 4 were actually a cyote family that had been raiding chicken coops in the area.
anyway, finally got a shot off on the lead dog. classic between the eyes shot. immediately went down.
the other 4 i hit everywhere from head to tail. 3 stopped in their tracks. one required a second round after i chased it down, about 20 yards.
the lead dog was about 80 pounds, and actually belonged to a farmer 3.5 miles away. the cyotes were only 40-50 pounds each.
i would have rather been carrying my python, but all in all, the .380 was very effective.
the rounds were hornady CD if anyone is interested.
just finished burying rascal.

[rsxr22]

i am so sorry to hear about Rascal. I have been a pet owner all my life and i would easily include my animals as part of my immediate family. It is good to hear that the .380 worked, but i would have rather read about you doing some gelatine tests or something to that effect.

I am sorry for your loss

[dreamweaver]

yeah, not a scientific test by any means, but i believe .380 would put a proper hurt on a BG.
i fel the same about my dogs, family.
in contrast, when i called the owner of the lead dog (asked if he wanted to come pick up the body) he said leave where he lies. shouldn't have been at my place to begin with.
people are funny........

[LockedBreech]

So awful. I am terribly sorry for the loss of your dog. I am glad your gun saved you.

[rtpzwms]

when i called the owner of the lead dog (asked if he wanted to come pick up the body) he said leave where he lies.

Wow, sorry for your loss. With an attitude like that the lead dog owner needs a lesson. Send him a bill for the value of your dog. Maybe he will rethink his position and learn it is HIS responsibly to keep his dog in check, and on HIS property. My dogs are part of my family and not property but the law doesn't agree....

[robfromga]

Im so sorry to hear about rascal. Very sorry.

[Bill54]

I'm sorry about Rascal too. I've had several dogs and yes, they're like family. I think I'd have a talk with the local police about adjusting the neighbor's attitude.

[pythagorean]

Sorry about your puppy.
Yes, the .380 is really an effective handgun quite contrary to popular opinion!

[HKFan9]

Sorry for your dog and all, glad your ok, and glad it worked for you... But I wouldn't consider comparing a dog to a BG trying to kill me or mine. .380's are not for me.

[virg]

I once shot a charging full grown approx 80lb pitt bull with a LCP loaded with Speer Gold Dots. Upon bullet impact, he turned about 90% and ran about 30yds before falling over out of steam. The bullet struck him on an angle just behind the left front shoulder and exited just before his right side hip area. In my opinion the .380 did just fine. I've seen dogs shot with a .40 S&W hp run just as far as the one I shot with the .380. The only thing that concerns me about the .380 is penetration depth.

[SwampYankee]

Yes, the .380 is really an effective handgun quite contrary to popular opinion!

Absolutely right. A lot of self professed experts like to poo-poo the .380 but even Massad Ayoob has made the comment that it is effectively on par with the .38 Special.

Despite the unfortunateness of losing your puppy, at least you were able to provide a greater public service. Between the coyotes and the foxes, I've lost 4 chickens this year.

And if I seem to remember correctly from my schooling long ago, a dog's skull is a good bit tougher and/or thicker than a human's. If you can put it through that, I wouldn't worry about BG's.

[zxcvbob]

in contrast, when i called the owner of the lead dog (asked if he wanted to come pick up the body) he said leave where he lies. shouldn't have been at my place to begin with.

In other words, he wants *you* to have to bury it. I'd either call the sheriff to come get it, or I'd gather up his dog and throw it in his yard. Not sure which; I guess it depends on the sheriff.

Sorry about your pup.

[HKFan9]

Didn't Ayoob also state somewhere that he considers the 9mm the minimum caliber for SD

[Raven Armament]

A .380 killing a coyote/dog at close range doesn't impress me nor relate to stopping a human being intent on hurting or killing someone.

Your story did not change my opinion that the .380 ACP cartridge is subordinate to better performing cartridges.

[Catfishman]

a dog's skull is a good bit tougher and/or thicker than a human's.

Really. That sounds unlikely.

Also, it's possible that 40-50 pounds is an over estimate. Most coyotes weigh less than 35 pounds. I killed the largest one I've ever seen and he weighed 35 on the button. They're not nearly as heavy as they look.

Good shooting. But stopping small canines doesn't mean a .380 is a good manstopper.

[Big Bill]

But stopping small canines doesn't mean a .380 is a good manstopper.

I think even a 22 is a good manstopper. How many men would continue an attack while being shot with hi-cap 22? I think getting shot once would be enough for me and most other men.

[AustinTX]

That's terrible. I'm sorry for your loss, but fortunately you were uninjured. I'm with the other folks that say your neighbor needs a visit from the local police/sheriff.

As for .380 and human attackers, I'm with HKFan9, Raven Armament, and Catfishman. It certainly has its place, but it should not be relied on as a primary carry caliber if carrying something more effective is feasible. There is no .380 load that remotely approximates the better 9mm defensive loads in effectiveness. That said, I'll be picking up a pocket .380 before long, and I'm sure there will be times when it's the only pistol I can conceal.

A lot of self professed experts like to poo-poo the .380 but even Massad Ayoob has made the comment that it is effectively on par with the .38 Special.

Here's Massad Ayoob's opinion on the .380 as a self-defense caliber: LINK.

Didn't Ayoob also state somewhere that he considers the 9mm the minimum caliber for SD

Yes. More than a few times.

[SwampYankee]

Here's Massad Ayoob's opinion on the .380 as a self-defense caliber: LINK.

That very well may be what he said in an internet forum but in his published writing, which has far more distribution and readership, he clearly states that .380 is in the range of .38 special for effectiveness (In the Gravest Extreme).

In an article from 2009 he states,

Most experts recommend a five-shot revolver as the absolute minimum in firepower, and the .380/9mm/.38SPL range as the minimum potency level in terms of handgun caliber.

What this leads me to believe is that despite the fact that everyone gets their collective panties in a bunch over whether the round is effective or not, Ayoob doesn't seem to have much concern for the issue. It does not appear that he goes out and says "don't use .380" nor does he say ".380 is marginal". In the link you post, I will admit that the posters name is Mas Ayoob, but are we sure that is even him? Or not just a Mall Ninja in disguise. In his book Combat Handgunnery from the 2007 edition, he does point out the limitations of the round while shooting pig skulls but he never says, "don't use it" or "it won't work on BG's". And I'm sure that the pigs skull is as hard as a rock and covered in musculature, quite different from the human skull. He indicates that students in his classes are allowed to use it and do. We all know there is a big difference between .380, and 9 mm but he lumps them together in a range? That seems quite a statement in itself.

As much of an expert as he his on subject's firearm related, he is more focused on the philosophical and legal realities of firearms use, firearms carry and effective, well trained use. He seems less interested in what caliber you choose and seems to shy away from making blanket statements with the exception of stating that the .38 inch bullet is a good minimum. Assuming Ayoob is the expert of all experts, he does not seem as terribly opposed to the .380 as many others out there.

No, the round is not a .44 Magnum. I'm sure no one will claim that it is. But it seems relatively effective in most cases. But then again, plenty of people have walked away from being shot with a .40 S&W so the phrase "most cases" should probably always be inserted as a caveat.

As for the effectiveness of .22's, I know a man who was shot point blank in the face with two rounds and they just bounced off his skull. He has the scars to prove it. He managed to unholster his .38 special and kill one of his assailants- this occurred at an ATM in Florida. My brother is a cop and witness a suicide by Beretta Tomcat, a .22. The .22 seems spotty at best. And Ayoob has said that a .22 derringer is not a acceptable SD weapon, IIRC, but I'm not interested in the .22 so I didn't dig up anymore.

In any case, those are the references I can find for Ayoob's position on .380.

I hope that is a well reasoned enough argument for you AustinTX.

[SwampYankee]

One more piece that I thought I should include for discussion. In the introduction to the caliber selection in Combat Handgunnery, Ayoob states:

The .22 and the .25 auto can certainly kill, but they can't always stop, which is a different thing altogether.

This is obviously not the same thing as saying that .32 and .380 are guaranteed manstoppers, but he does stop short of including them in the list of what must be assumed to be considered "marginal" calibers.

[Jimmy10mm]

Sorry about your dog and the trauma you experienced seeing him killed like that. At least you got some payback and the satisfaction of knowing that pack won't attack another. I also think the owner of the lead dog should at the very least compensate you for your loss.

As for the 380, I am carrying one most of the time. I also have a compact .40 but the lightweight and ease of concealment brings the 380 with me more often than the .40.

About 15 or so years ago I was talking with a plainclothes LEO on guns. He carried a Sig .40 and when he told me his partner carried a Sig 380 I said, but I've read that the 380 doesn't have any stopping power. He smiled and told me that his partner had killed a perpetrator with his 380 in the recent past.

No doubt shot placement is paramount with the 380 and most anything else that is in the realm of ccw. If the round is equivalent to a 38spl I think of Jack Ruby putting Lee H Oswald down with one shot and Oswald dead within the hour. OTOH, recently in NYC a perp was shot 21 times with 9mm and survived. I am depending on the 380 to deliver the goods if I do my part. Hope I'm not disappointed if I ever have to use it.

[hardworker]

The way I feel, if 21 9mms couldn't put him down, how much more could a 45 really have done?

[mavracer]

very sorry as to your loss, good to know that since you did your job (got good hits) that the 380 did it's job. once again proving the 380 in your pocket is better than the 45 you left at home.
I'd also echo the sentiment of sending the lead dog's owner a bill.

[Jimmy10mm]

(off topic) Thank you mavracer, you've provided me with a sig line, if you don't mind. "the 380 in your pocket is better than the 45 you left at home." mavracer

[Sefner]

I don't know as though anyone would doubt the .380's effectiveness. I think OP made the argument that most people have for not carrying .380:

Originally Posted by dreamweaver

i would have rather been carrying my python, but all in all, the .380 was very effective.

Emphasis added.

I posted the following in another thread, I think it bears repeating here:

I always begin handgun caliber discussions with the following: Every handgun round (that is commonly used, even the 50AE) is very, very poor when it comes to incapacitating and disabling people. In other words: Every handgun caliber has extremely poor terminal ballistics performance. No matter what. If everyone can't agree on that, then there is no point in moving on with the discussion. Just remember: 80-85% of handgun victims survive.

That being said, we can't carry rifles around, we have to carry pistols.

"Stopping power" means can you land as many shots as possible in an area that results in damage to vital organs that result in a person's body being unable to continue normal operation? If the answer is "Yes, I am able to land several shots at COM with this caliber in a very short amount of time" then you have "stopping power". I will prepare my flame suit for saying this.

The only thing a .380 lacks is penetration. For some that is a plus. If you live in an apartment, you don't want a round going through the wall and into your neighbor's TV (or worse, into your neighbor). But the question of how much penetration is adequate is important.

I recommend looking at the following chart:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-...RangerAmmo.gif

As a disclaimer, this is for one brand and one round comparison, but it works.

So through ballistics gel, .380 penetrates only 7.65". This is the lowest penetration number for ballistics gel and pretty poor considering the second lowest is 10.9" with .357 SIG. Most are around 12-14 inches.

I do want to point out the "expansion" number. This is the width of the round as it passes through the body. Anything the round touches will suffer damage, and some very very soft tissues that are just close by will also suffer damage. Not a common statistic used in terminal ballistics, but it's worth looking at to make a quick point. Comparing:

.380: .65"
9mm: .62"-.7"
.40: .6"-.67"
.45ACP: .73"-.79"

The .380 to within a tenth of an inch to the rest of the rounds, even better than some.

I'll leave it up to OP to decide if .380 is good for his purposes.

------ End of copy

Sorry to hear about the loss of the puppy. It doesn't help it was so violently. Did the dogs start running when they heard the shots? I've heard stories of domesticated dogs stopping a charge when they hear a gunshot.

[Daryl]

As much of an expert as he his on subject's firearm related, he is more focused on the philosophical and legal realities of firearms use, firearms carry and effective, well trained use. He seems less interested in what caliber you choose and seems to shy away from making blanket statements with the exception of stating that the .38 inch bullet is a good minimum. Assuming Ayoob is the expert of all experts, he does not seem as terribly opposed to the .380 as many others out there.

Ayoob is a firearms expert, and offers good advice for those willing to listen.

That said, I doubt he has time to argue the small differences in various calibers and cartridges. The one bit of wisdom I remember reading from him was that even a cheap gun can save your life, and he gave examples.

That still doesn't make a cheap gun the best to bet your life on, but it's better'n nuthin'.

To the OP,

I'm sorry for your loss. You have my empathy.

As a long-time coyote caller who's killed more than a few coyotes over the last 3 decades, I'm absolutely amazed at your shooting skills. Killing 4 coyotes and 1 dog with a smallish, short barreled handgun is an amazing feat, and if true then you have good reason to be proud of your shooting skills.

I know some very skilled handgun shooters who have competed nationally, yet know of only one or two who might be able to do that on any kind of consistent basis, and probably wouldn't be very successful with a short barreled .380.

I'm an accomplished rifle shot, and I've never killed more than 3 coyotes that came in together, and then only a few times in all the years I've been calling predators.

Daryl