What model S&W is this?

BerdanSS · December 30, 2014, 10:58 PM

What is it and how much is it worth? Seller says it's a .38 S&W short. and doesn't know much else.

Jim Watson · December 30, 2014, 11:04 PM

S&W Military & Police, caliber .38/200 (Same as .38 S&W with heavier bullet.) from British WWII contracts.

Fairly desirable if it has not been reamed out for .38 Special.
But less availability of ammo.

BerdanSS · December 30, 2014, 11:12 PM

Well it's not reamed. The seller said he is 100% sure it's .38 short. Funny thing is I have a couple boxes of it in the gun safe. It caught my eye as I scrolled past it. At first glance I thought is was a model 10. They'er asking $275 OBO and it's located just a few minuets from my house.

I know the finish isn't that nice, but I have a passionate love for military pistols. Especially revolvers. Any Idea of the age?

James K · December 30, 2014, 11:22 PM

Without the serial number, including the "V" or "V" and "S" if present, the best that can be determined is that it was made between 1941 and the end of 1945.

Over a million of those guns were made, in .38 Special for U.S. forces and .38 S&W for our allies, and they did make a significant contribution to the war effort. After the war, many in the latter caliber were purchased as surplus and reamed to .38 Special for better sale in the U.S. That poses no real problem, except that it reduces the desirability for collectors.

Jim

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 12:30 AM

Yep he just confirmed still original .38 s&w. And lockup is tight. I know its kinda rough but is it worth a least $250? Provided the bore is clean?

Jim Watson · December 31, 2014, 01:06 AM

I don't like playing Internet Price Is Right, but $250 is good.

Colloquialisms aside, note that it is NOT ".38 S&W Short", just .38 S&W.

Lots of people call it .38 short, there was even one generation in one area that called it the ".38 Regular" as opposed to the ".38 Special."
Doesn't make them right or clear.

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 01:25 AM

Lol right you are jim. I should know better, much much better. Im one of those guys whos y eyes bug out when someone calls a magazine a clip. Im going to try to pick it up tomorrow.

I do love them old cartridges...38 short, 45 english and who can forget the .45 long colt? As opposed to the .45 short colt.

**Mike Irwin** · December 31, 2014, 08:13 AM

The .38 Short is actually an old, OLD, Colt cartridge derived from a similar English cartridge, and originally chambered in conversions of .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers, and later adopted into the Lightning Double Action and the New Line and possibly House revolvers.

A later variation of the cartridge was introduced around World War I for Colt double action revolvers.

It was a predecessor of the .38 Long Colt and .38 Special cartridges.

Although sometimes called the .38 S&W short, the .38 S&W was a one-off evolutionary dead end given that S&W chose the .38 Long Colt as the starting point for the .38 Special.

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 09:28 AM

Interesting.

I've found several places with new manufacture .38 s&w in stock from $18.99 to $24.99 a box.

James K · December 31, 2014, 11:21 AM

FWIW, S&W chose the .38 Long Colt as the base for the .38 Special because the .38 Long Colt was then (1899) the U.S. service cartridge and S&W decided that having its new M&P revolver capable of using that common cartridge was worth swallowing a little pride. There was a lot of dissatisfaction in the military with the issue Colt .38 revolver, and S&W hoped that its new revolver and more powerful cartridge would get it a military contract. Early S&W M&P's were even marked for .38 Special and U.S. Service Cartridges (they didn't call it ".38 Long Colt", of course).

As it happened, the U.S. first adopted the M1909 revolver, at which point S&W dropped the "service cartridge" marking, then the M1911 pistol; it would take 43 years and a wartime emergency before S&W got a military contract for its M&P revolver and the .38 Special cartridge.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · December 31, 2014, 12:03 PM

"As it happened, the U.S. first adopted the M1909 revolver, at which point S&W dropped the "service cartridge" marking, then the M1911 pistol; it would take 43 years and a wartime emergency before S&W got a military contract for its M&P revolver and the .38 Special cartridge."

Uhm... possibly not.

The Army and Navy both ordered several thousand Model of 1899s chambered in .38 Long Colt for military testing and use, with some of the late ones reportedly being chambered for .38 Special.

The military also supposedly let several small contracts at various times in the 1920s and 1930s, no more than a few dozen guns at a time.

carguychris · December 31, 2014, 02:49 PM

...this is NOT your average British-contract .38/200 re-imported to the USA in the 1960s. These guns typically display numerous crown-over-BNP British commercial proofmarks and a big and ugly 0.361" / 2-1/2 TONS (IIRC) marking on the LH side of the barrel.

The ~~D (arrow) D~~ A^F and FTR/MA55 markings indicate that the gun was procured by the Australian ~~Department of Defence~~ Forces and underwent "Factory Thorough Repair" (i.e. a total rebuild to factory standards) at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in Lithgow, NSW, Australia in 1955. [EDIT: I read the markings incorrectly in the original photo; refer to my follow-on post.]

More info in this S&W forum thread: http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/...-markings.html

This gun is more special than a run-of-the-mill British .38/200 and IMHO it appears all-original; at $250ish, my advice to you is BUY IT. Did you?

Driftwood Johnson · December 31, 2014, 04:02 PM

Quote:

FWIW, S&W chose the .38 Long Colt as the base for the .38 Special because the .38 Long Colt was then (1899) the U.S. service cartridge and S&W decided that having its new M&P revolver capable of using that common cartridge was worth swallowing a little pride. There was a lot of dissatisfaction in the military with the issue Colt .38 revolver, and S&W hoped that its new revolver and more powerful cartridge would get it a military contract. Early S&W M&P's were even marked for .38 Special and U.S. Service Cartridges (they didn't call it ".38 Long Colt", of course).

Howdy

Here is the caliber marking on a 38 M&P Model of 1905 First Change that I bought recently. It shipped from S&W in July of 1906.

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 05:39 PM

I got it...and he let me have it for $225.00...the pictures also had cast a negative light on it. Its in much better condition than i could of hopped for. Good pics when i get home with it

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 08:16 PM

Here it is.

BerdanSS · December 31, 2014, 08:18 PM

couple more with the markings

I couldn't get a picture of the bore, but I was shocked....Mirror bright with crisp rifling.

DnPRK · December 31, 2014, 11:04 PM

Good score!

A pause for the COZ · January 1, 2015, 01:49 AM

Dang good find. Hope I run across some thing like that.

BerdanSS · January 1, 2015, 11:09 AM

It's funny, I've never lucked into something this good by such odd means. My wife does the facebook thing, and she is forever teasing me about this site being my "ManBook" and "GunBook"

She comes and tells me yesterday "I found something on facebook you'll like" a new local "yard sale Group" thing for guns and knives.

Low and behold I scroll through it, and towards the bottom I find this forgotten little war horse...with not one nice comment or a question posted.

I'll never say a bad thing about facebook again

tallball · January 1, 2015, 02:30 PM

Nice piece! I have a Australian SMLE it might have served with.

carguychris · January 1, 2015, 02:31 PM

I misinterpreted the markings in my prior post due to the poor focus. The gun is actually marked A^F for Australian Forces, and not D^D for Department of Defence.

I determined this from the following guide to Aussie military markings at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory (LSAF) Museum website. The guide is for Lee-Enfield rifle markings, but several of the markings are apparently the same.

http://www.lithgowsafmuseum.org.au/f...e_markings.pdf

I don't know exactly what the crown over "3D" over "A"(?) marking indicates, but it looks very similar to documented Commonwealth inspection marks from the WWII era, so I assume that's what it is.

James K · January 1, 2015, 04:01 PM

It went through Factory Thorough Repair (FTR) at Lithgow (MA) in 1955. I doubt much was actually done to it. FTR is an arsenal inspection/repair; it can be anything from a complete rebuild to a minor part replacement to a cleaning and serviceability check.

Jim

bedbugbilly · January 1, 2015, 06:43 PM

Berdan - nice find and nice score! You did well! Enjoy!

BerdanSS · January 1, 2015, 08:52 PM

Thank you all for the information and links, most helpful. while skimming through the links (and links form links

) I found one that said a V in front of the underside in front of the trigger guard was an Australian mark for a Victory. Not sure if that's true or of any consequence, just another mark of history. I also found the W.B square inspectors stamp which (correct me if I'm wrong) is for Col. Waldemar S. Broberg the army inspector of ordnance for the hartford & springfield ordnance district from '41 to '42. And a large 5 both stamped on the but of the grip. The 5 could be a rack number maybe?

Haven't found a definite on the crown marking yet. So I'm going to assume the above explanation Chris gave as well. I'm going tomorrow to one of my favorite places. An army surplus that deals mostly with WW I and WWII items, as well as odd/surplus ammo. He has a pretty large amount of the lighter grained .38 S&W in right now. I'm hoping to find the correct Aussie holster, belt and lanyard as well.

BerdanSS · January 2, 2015, 12:51 AM

Tallball

Quote:

Nice piece! I have a Australian SMLE it might have served with.

Very well could have

I'd like to think this one was toted by Monty and used to run Jerry back into Tunisia

if only, and I had a signed letter

I do wish I still had my Jungle Carbine to pair with it. I'll have to pick up another enfield now....dang!

December 30, 2014, 10:58 PM	#1
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	What model S&W is this? What is it and how much is it worth? Seller says it's a .38 S&W short. and doesn't know much else.

December 31, 2014, 08:13 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	The .38 Short is actually an old, OLD, Colt cartridge derived from a similar English cartridge, and originally chambered in conversions of .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers, and later adopted into the Lightning Double Action and the New Line and possibly House revolvers. A later variation of the cartridge was introduced around World War I for Colt double action revolvers. It was a predecessor of the .38 Long Colt and .38 Special cartridges. Although sometimes called the .38 S&W short, the .38 S&W was a one-off evolutionary dead end given that S&W chose the .38 Long Colt as the starting point for the .38 Special. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 31, 2014, 12:03 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	"As it happened, the U.S. first adopted the M1909 revolver, at which point S&W dropped the "service cartridge" marking, then the M1911 pistol; it would take 43 years and a wartime emergency before S&W got a military contract for its M&P revolver and the .38 Special cartridge." Uhm... possibly not. The Army and Navy both ordered several thousand Model of 1899s chambered in .38 Long Colt for military testing and use, with some of the late ones reportedly being chambered for .38 Special. The military also supposedly let several small contracts at various times in the 1920s and 1930s, no more than a few dozen guns at a time. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 31, 2014, 02:49 PM	#12
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	Look closely at the pictures... ...this is NOT your average British-contract .38/200 re-imported to the USA in the 1960s. These guns typically display numerous crown-over-BNP British commercial proofmarks and a big and ugly 0.361" / 2-1/2 TONS (IIRC) marking on the LH side of the barrel. The ~~D (arrow) D~~ A^F and FTR/MA55 markings indicate that the gun was procured by the Australian ~~Department of Defence~~ Forces and underwent "Factory Thorough Repair" (i.e. a total rebuild to factory standards) at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in Lithgow, NSW, Australia in 1955. [EDIT: I read the markings incorrectly in the original photo; refer to my follow-on post.] More info in this S&W forum thread: http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/...-markings.html This gun is more special than a run-of-the-mill British .38/200 and IMHO it appears all-original; at $250ish, my advice to you is BUY IT. Did you? Last edited by carguychris; January 1, 2015 at 02:16 PM.

January 1, 2015, 06:43 PM	#23
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,290	Berdan - nice find and nice score! You did well! Enjoy! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 30, 2014, 11:04 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,175	S&W Military & Police, caliber .38/200 (Same as .38 S&W with heavier bullet.) from British WWII contracts. Fairly desirable if it has not been reamed out for .38 Special. But less availability of ammo.

December 30, 2014, 11:12 PM	#3
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Well it's not reamed. The seller said he is 100% sure it's .38 short. Funny thing is I have a couple boxes of it in the gun safe. It caught my eye as I scrolled past it. At first glance I thought is was a model 10. They'er asking $275 OBO and it's located just a few minuets from my house. I know the finish isn't that nice, but I have a passionate love for military pistols. Especially revolvers. Any Idea of the age?

December 30, 2014, 11:22 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Without the serial number, including the "V" or "V" and "S" if present, the best that can be determined is that it was made between 1941 and the end of 1945. Over a million of those guns were made, in .38 Special for U.S. forces and .38 S&W for our allies, and they did make a significant contribution to the war effort. After the war, many in the latter caliber were purchased as surplus and reamed to .38 Special for better sale in the U.S. That poses no real problem, except that it reduces the desirability for collectors. Jim

December 31, 2014, 12:30 AM	#5
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Yep he just confirmed still original .38 s&w. And lockup is tight. I know its kinda rough but is it worth a least $250? Provided the bore is clean?

December 31, 2014, 01:06 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,175	I don't like playing Internet Price Is Right, but $250 is good. Colloquialisms aside, note that it is NOT ".38 S&W Short", just .38 S&W. Lots of people call it .38 short, there was even one generation in one area that called it the ".38 Regular" as opposed to the ".38 Special." Doesn't make them right or clear.

December 31, 2014, 01:25 AM	#7
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Lol right you are jim. I should know better, much much better. Im one of those guys whos y eyes bug out when someone calls a magazine a clip. Im going to try to pick it up tomorrow. I do love them old cartridges...38 short, 45 english and who can forget the .45 long colt? As opposed to the .45 short colt.

December 31, 2014, 09:28 AM	#9
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Interesting. I've found several places with new manufacture .38 s&w in stock from $18.99 to $24.99 a box.

December 31, 2014, 11:21 AM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, S&W chose the .38 Long Colt as the base for the .38 Special because the .38 Long Colt was then (1899) the U.S. service cartridge and S&W decided that having its new M&P revolver capable of using that common cartridge was worth swallowing a little pride. There was a lot of dissatisfaction in the military with the issue Colt .38 revolver, and S&W hoped that its new revolver and more powerful cartridge would get it a military contract. Early S&W M&P's were even marked for .38 Special and U.S. Service Cartridges (they didn't call it ".38 Long Colt", of course). As it happened, the U.S. first adopted the M1909 revolver, at which point S&W dropped the "service cartridge" marking, then the M1911 pistol; it would take 43 years and a wartime emergency before S&W got a military contract for its M&P revolver and the .38 Special cartridge. Jim

December 31, 2014, 05:39 PM	#14
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	I got it...and he let me have it for $225.00...the pictures also had cast a negative light on it. Its in much better condition than i could of hopped for. Good pics when i get home with it

December 31, 2014, 08:16 PM	#15
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Here it is.

December 31, 2014, 08:18 PM	#16
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	couple more with the markings I couldn't get a picture of the bore, but I was shocked....Mirror bright with crisp rifling.

December 31, 2014, 11:04 PM	#17
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	Good score!

January 1, 2015, 01:49 AM	#18
A pause for the COZ Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Braham, Minnesota Posts: 1,314	Dang good find. Hope I run across some thing like that.

January 1, 2015, 11:09 AM	#19
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	It's funny, I've never lucked into something this good by such odd means. My wife does the facebook thing, and she is forever teasing me about this site being my "ManBook" and "GunBook" She comes and tells me yesterday "I found something on facebook you'll like" a new local "yard sale Group" thing for guns and knives. Low and behold I scroll through it, and towards the bottom I find this forgotten little war horse...with not one nice comment or a question posted. I'll never say a bad thing about facebook again

January 1, 2015, 02:30 PM	#20
tallball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2014 Posts: 2,444	Nice piece! I have a Australian SMLE it might have served with.

January 1, 2015, 02:31 PM	#21
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	I misinterpreted the markings in my prior post due to the poor focus. The gun is actually marked A^F for Australian Forces, and not D^D for Department of Defence. I determined this from the following guide to Aussie military markings at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory (LSAF) Museum website. The guide is for Lee-Enfield rifle markings, but several of the markings are apparently the same. http://www.lithgowsafmuseum.org.au/f...e_markings.pdf I don't know exactly what the crown over "3D" over "A"(?) marking indicates, but it looks very similar to documented Commonwealth inspection marks from the WWII era, so I assume that's what it is.

January 1, 2015, 04:01 PM	#22
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It went through Factory Thorough Repair (FTR) at Lithgow (MA) in 1955. I doubt much was actually done to it. FTR is an arsenal inspection/repair; it can be anything from a complete rebuild to a minor part replacement to a cleaning and serviceability check. Jim

January 1, 2015, 08:52 PM	#24
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	Thank you all for the information and links, most helpful. while skimming through the links (and links form links ) I found one that said a V in front of the underside in front of the trigger guard was an Australian mark for a Victory. Not sure if that's true or of any consequence, just another mark of history. I also found the W.B square inspectors stamp which (correct me if I'm wrong) is for Col. Waldemar S. Broberg the army inspector of ordnance for the hartford & springfield ordnance district from '41 to '42. And a large 5 both stamped on the but of the grip. The 5 could be a rack number maybe? Haven't found a definite on the crown marking yet. So I'm going to assume the above explanation Chris gave as well. I'm going tomorrow to one of my favorite places. An army surplus that deals mostly with WW I and WWII items, as well as odd/surplus ammo. He has a pretty large amount of the lighter grained .38 S&W in right now. I'm hoping to find the correct Aussie holster, belt and lanyard as well. Last edited by BerdanSS; January 1, 2015 at 09:00 PM.