Gold Cup Trophy Question

2ndsojourn · May 29, 2014, 10:41 PM

I have two other 1911's - a WW2 Remington Rand and a Sistema Colt. Both have the half cock 'safety'. (*See follow up question at the end.) My recent purchase Gold Cup doesn't have this. But it has about a 1/16 notch in the workings and when I pull the trigger, the hammer lightly drops. I haven't gotten to the range yet to try it but it may not have enough energy from this position to drive the firing pin. What's up with this 'feature'?

When I was in the Navy we were instructed that the half cock was one of the safety features. I've heard from more than one source that this isn't a reliable safety. What do y'all think?

DaleA · May 30, 2014, 12:25 AM

Clarify please.

1. When you pull the hammer back 1/16 of the way to being fully cocked the hammer stays there and THEN when you pull the trigger the hammer falls.

2. The gun does not have the regular 1/2 cock notch at all, only this 1/16 notch cock.

If this is the case I don’t think this is normal and a trip to the gunsmith is in order. Colt Gold Cups should have the regular 1/2 cock of the hammer and the trigger should NOT drop the hammer.

I’m certainly willing to be corrected by any of the 1911 experts on the forum but I think this is clearly wrong.

2ndsojourn · May 30, 2014, 08:05 AM

Dale, that's correct.

g.willikers · May 30, 2014, 10:35 AM

Gold Cups do have a different sear arrangement:
http://www.m1911.org/technic16.htm
But the hammer should not be dropping from anything other than a full cocked position.

RickB · May 30, 2014, 11:44 AM

All Series 80 Colts have the "quarter-cock shelf" in place of the captive half-cock notch.
The quarter-cock still stops the hammer from falling in the case of the thumb slipping off the spur, or broken sear, or other mechanical problem.
The S80 system prevents the firing pin from contacting the primer if the hammer does fall (for some reason other than a complete pull of the trigger), so there was no need for the captive notch to prevent hammer movement.
Also, if the hammer does fall from the quarter-cock, it's not moving fast enough to move the firing pin with enough energy to crack a primer, anyway.

rock185 · May 30, 2014, 11:52 AM

Exactly what RickB said. Colt has been using this "feature" on Series '80 pistols, which the Gold Cup Trophy is, since 1983....

UncleEd · May 30, 2014, 12:34 PM

I back up

rickB and rock 185

Nothing wrong with your gun.

ON PAGE 17 of the current Series 80 Safety Instruction Manual you will find
a description of the system and advises you may then lower the hammer from the "quarter cock" shelf by squeezing the trigger. The "quarter cock" is referred to as the Safety Notch.

2ndsojourn · May 30, 2014, 01:42 PM

Ah yes....the good old instruction book.

I'll check that out.
Thanks guys.

g.willikers · May 30, 2014, 03:01 PM

That's a new one on me.
Here's the owners manual:
There's a full paragraph on the hammer Safety Stop on page 17.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21783245/C...V-S-80-Pistols
Doubt that many 1911 users could ever get used to that, though.
Pull the trigger to drop the hammer - nope.
Too many years devoted to avoiding doing that.

DaleA · May 30, 2014, 06:24 PM

I stand corrected.

Well you learn something new everyday...and now that I've done that I think I'm going to go take a nap.

Seriously...this one took me by surprise. Sorry for the alarm 2ndsojourn.

Hunter0924 · May 30, 2014, 11:28 PM

The reason for the 1/4 cock notch over the half cock hooks is if the hammer was inadvertently dropped the 1/2 cock would catch the hammer but that was hard on the hooks.
The 1/4 cock shelf is much easier on the fire control group.

RickB · May 31, 2014, 12:10 PM

The older Gold Cup hammers have a special, narrowed half-cock notch, designed to spare the sear; did they do away with that on Series 80 guns?

g.willikers · May 31, 2014, 12:17 PM

Judging from the owners' manual description and other sources on the web, the hammer is shaped differently and the half cock has been replaced with the present arrangement.
If I read it all correctly.
Anyone think it was a good trade off?

UncleEd · May 31, 2014, 12:40 PM

I don't know that it was a "trade off" and seeing as how no reports over 20 years have surfaced that it was a bad idea, why care or worry about it.
Never heard of a gun going off because the trigger was pulled in the quarter cock position.

I remember when the firing pin safety was installed on the Series 80. Many
dire predictions were made about how it was going to jam up the gun, fail,
break, etc. Again a lot of worry over nothing. Bill Wilson in his book basically says leave it alone and don't worry about it.

2ndsojourn · May 31, 2014, 10:22 PM

After reading the owners manual and testing it out for myself, you guys are right. It's an internal safety stop if the hammer slips without pulling the trigger. From almost full cock I only tested it a few times for fear of excess wear or damage to the internals. It works. Also, the hammer spring is much stronger than my other two 1911's.

The manual also states not rely on this 1/4 cock as a manual safety. Yet years ago, we were instructed that the half cock position is a safety. Is the Series 80 that much different from the mil-spec 1911? Were we instructed wrongly back in the day?

Venom1956 · May 31, 2014, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Pull the trigger to drop the hammer - nope.
Too many years devoted to avoiding doing that.

How do u decock your gun? I was specifically told to dry fire my 1911 to decock it rather the ride the hammer down. Just curious your method?

g.willikers · May 31, 2014, 11:27 PM

Remove the mag, rack and release the slide a couple of times to clear the gun, pinch the hammer with the thumb and forefinger of the off side hand, pull the trigger and let the hammer down slowly and safely.
If the hammer falls too fast, it just turns into a dry fire, anyways.

RickB · June 1, 2014, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Yet years ago, we were instructed that the half cock position is a safety

Half-cock is a safety, but lowering the hammer to half-cock as an option to lowering it completely, makes no sense if you understand how a 1911 works.
Leaving the hammer at half-cock actually defeats a couple of safety features, so while the half-cock is a safety, it shouldn't be considered a chosen option to cocked 'n' locked or fully lowering the hammer.
Not saying you were advocating half-cock as a safe way to carry the gun, just that creating a "position" that serves a safety function is distinct from a "postion" in which you might choose to leave the gun.

2ndsojourn · June 1, 2014, 02:24 PM

OK, thanks.

May 29, 2014, 10:41 PM	#1
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Gold Cup Trophy Question I have two other 1911's - a WW2 Remington Rand and a Sistema Colt. Both have the half cock 'safety'. (*See follow up question at the end.) My recent purchase Gold Cup doesn't have this. But it has about a 1/16 notch in the workings and when I pull the trigger, the hammer lightly drops. I haven't gotten to the range yet to try it but it may not have enough energy from this position to drive the firing pin. What's up with this 'feature'? When I was in the Navy we were instructed that the half cock was one of the safety features. I've heard from more than one source that this isn't a reliable safety. What do y'all think?

May 30, 2014, 11:52 AM	#6
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,120	Exactly what RickB said. Colt has been using this "feature" on Series '80 pistols, which the Gold Cup Trophy is, since 1983.... __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

May 30, 2014, 12:25 AM	#2
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,384	Clarify please. 1. When you pull the hammer back 1/16 of the way to being fully cocked the hammer stays there and THEN when you pull the trigger the hammer falls. 2. The gun does not have the regular 1/2 cock notch at all, only this 1/16 notch cock. If this is the case I don’t think this is normal and a trip to the gunsmith is in order. Colt Gold Cups should have the regular 1/2 cock of the hammer and the trigger should NOT drop the hammer. I’m certainly willing to be corrected by any of the 1911 experts on the forum but I think this is clearly wrong.

May 30, 2014, 08:05 AM	#3
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Dale, that's correct.

May 30, 2014, 10:35 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Gold Cups do have a different sear arrangement: http://www.m1911.org/technic16.htm But the hammer should not be dropping from anything other than a full cocked position.

May 30, 2014, 11:44 AM	#5
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,559	All Series 80 Colts have the "quarter-cock shelf" in place of the captive half-cock notch. The quarter-cock still stops the hammer from falling in the case of the thumb slipping off the spur, or broken sear, or other mechanical problem. The S80 system prevents the firing pin from contacting the primer if the hammer does fall (for some reason other than a complete pull of the trigger), so there was no need for the captive notch to prevent hammer movement. Also, if the hammer does fall from the quarter-cock, it's not moving fast enough to move the firing pin with enough energy to crack a primer, anyway.

May 30, 2014, 12:34 PM	#7
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	I back up rickB and rock 185 Nothing wrong with your gun. ON PAGE 17 of the current Series 80 Safety Instruction Manual you will find a description of the system and advises you may then lower the hammer from the "quarter cock" shelf by squeezing the trigger. The "quarter cock" is referred to as the Safety Notch.

May 30, 2014, 01:42 PM	#8
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Ah yes....the good old instruction book. I'll check that out. Thanks guys.

May 30, 2014, 03:01 PM	#9
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	That's a new one on me. Here's the owners manual: There's a full paragraph on the hammer Safety Stop on page 17. http://www.scribd.com/doc/21783245/C...V-S-80-Pistols Doubt that many 1911 users could ever get used to that, though. Pull the trigger to drop the hammer - nope. Too many years devoted to avoiding doing that.

May 30, 2014, 06:24 PM	#10
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,384	I stand corrected. Well you learn something new everyday...and now that I've done that I think I'm going to go take a nap. Seriously...this one took me by surprise. Sorry for the alarm 2ndsojourn.

May 30, 2014, 11:28 PM	#11
Hunter0924 Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 472	The reason for the 1/4 cock notch over the half cock hooks is if the hammer was inadvertently dropped the 1/2 cock would catch the hammer but that was hard on the hooks. The 1/4 cock shelf is much easier on the fire control group.

May 31, 2014, 12:10 PM	#12
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,559	The older Gold Cup hammers have a special, narrowed half-cock notch, designed to spare the sear; did they do away with that on Series 80 guns?

May 31, 2014, 12:17 PM	#13
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Judging from the owners' manual description and other sources on the web, the hammer is shaped differently and the half cock has been replaced with the present arrangement. If I read it all correctly. Anyone think it was a good trade off?

May 31, 2014, 12:40 PM	#14
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	I don't know that it was a "trade off" and seeing as how no reports over 20 years have surfaced that it was a bad idea, why care or worry about it. Never heard of a gun going off because the trigger was pulled in the quarter cock position. I remember when the firing pin safety was installed on the Series 80. Many dire predictions were made about how it was going to jam up the gun, fail, break, etc. Again a lot of worry over nothing. Bill Wilson in his book basically says leave it alone and don't worry about it.

May 31, 2014, 10:22 PM	#15
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	After reading the owners manual and testing it out for myself, you guys are right. It's an internal safety stop if the hammer slips without pulling the trigger. From almost full cock I only tested it a few times for fear of excess wear or damage to the internals. It works. Also, the hammer spring is much stronger than my other two 1911's. The manual also states not rely on this 1/4 cock as a manual safety. Yet years ago, we were instructed that the half cock position is a safety. Is the Series 80 that much different from the mil-spec 1911? Were we instructed wrongly back in the day?

May 31, 2014, 11:27 PM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Remove the mag, rack and release the slide a couple of times to clear the gun, pinch the hammer with the thumb and forefinger of the off side hand, pull the trigger and let the hammer down slowly and safely. If the hammer falls too fast, it just turns into a dry fire, anyways.

June 1, 2014, 02:24 PM	#19
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	OK, thanks.