Unsafe guns

James K · January 15, 2001, 09:00 PM

This is a bit different from another thread which advises to always make sure the gun is safe before returning it to the customer. But what about guns that are inherently unsafe, or guns that the customer asks to be "fixed" so they can fire, even though firing is unsafe.

I am thinking especially of Damascus barrel shotguns, old rifle, or old revolvers of the "pot metal" type. Customers bring these in to be "checked over" and the guns are sometimes accepted before the gunsmith gets a good look. Does he return the gun, knowing it could harm a shooter? Does he warn the owner? What happens if the owner will not listen to a warning? Can a gunsmith keep the gun unless the customer signs a release?

There is also the case of guns that were deactivated because they were unsafe. People who knew what they are doing often removed or broke firing pins in these guns to keep them from being fired, but a new generation wants them "fixed". What does the gunsmith do in this case?

Just some questions to start a discussion.

Jim

**4V50 Gary** · January 15, 2001, 09:08 PM

Warn the customer and refuse to work on the firearm. Once the gunsmith works on said "unsafe firearm", and returns the gun to the owner, and the owner becomes injured during the course of using said gun, then the gunsmith may be liable under the theory of negligence. Specificlly, breach of the duty to warn or make safe said firearm prior to returning it.

Mind you, the gunsmith should not "keep" said firearm even though it is unsafe and should not be fired. Doing so gives rise to the classical tort, Conversion, which is substantial interference with the chattel (property) of another. The remedy is a "forced sale" where the tortfeasor must pay for the item (generally fair market value). Keeping said firearm also gives rise to criminal liability in the form of theft. Opps. We don't want the merry lads of the ATF unnecessarily involved, do we?

Thanks for an interesting topic!

**Mike Irwin** · January 15, 2001, 10:00 PM

You do what one of my gunsmiths used to do...

Return the gun to the customer, with a carbon "refused to work on gun" reciept listing the reasons why, and have the customer read it and sign it.

That then goes into a file that you keep until you close up your shop.

That way you have evidentiary proof that the customer knew the problems with the gun as well as the fact that you refused to work on it. Goes a long way in case you're sued.

bullseye · January 15, 2001, 10:25 PM

Jim, after reading your posts on this subject I have to commend you on your integrity. I'm sure some smiths looking for a buck would take these guns in and do just what the customer asks. You're the sort of person I would want to do business with.

Ken Cook · January 16, 2001, 04:03 AM

The standard reply at my shop was always to refuse to work on the gun.
It's really annoying to think of all the times some bozo has come in with an aluminum RG revolver and wanted it fixed up.
Same with ancient .22 rifles and damask barreled shotguns.
I've seen .22 rifles come in with as many as eleven (count'em 11!) rings in the barrel where some idiot had a round stick in the chamber and just kept pulling the trigger until "all th' bulits comed out."

There have been a VERY few occasions when someone has brought in a very old gun in rough shape and I've done cosmetic work only.
This has always entailed draw filing and polishing the pits out of the exterior as much as possible, repairing or replacing cracked or broken grips and re-finishing.
I always advise the customer that this action will destroy any collectablity the gun may have and that it will NOT be safe to fire or in a firing condition when I'm done.
I then hand over a form for them to sign with their name, address, phone number, make/model of the gun and the serial number requiring them to acknowledge that this firearm will NEVER be safe to fire and authorizing me to disable the gun so as to make it inoperable.
In the past I've gone so far as to not only remove the firing pin, but to have a friend tig weld the firing pin hole CLOSED.

Danomite 45 · January 17, 2001, 02:31 AM

Jim,
At our shop we commonly find a firearm unsafe upon closer inspection. if the gun, let's say a damascus Bbl, is usafe with modern ammo, we make a note of that on the work order and have the customer sign it before it is returned. If it is a modifcation, such as removing the ugly new hammerblock safety on the new '94 winchesters, we make a note on the work order that the customer understands and assumes all responsibility. it is quite simple realy. some people who want work done are just plain ignorant and it is our job to educate them, within reason. Somethings are just not done though, like Ken said, "use your head".
Daniel

James K · January 17, 2001, 02:35 PM

Just to show you what we are up against. I once removed the firing pins from a Damascus double barrel for an old fellow who wanted to make sure it could not be fired. He took the firing pins with him. A couple of years later, after the old fellow died, his son came in with the gun and insisted the firing pins be put back in, as he wanted the gun "original, for collecting". I warned him repeatedly not to fire it and he swore he had no such intent.

Three days later he blew off two fingers shooting magnum shells. He didn't sue, but at least I had two good independent witnesses, even though the shop did not use a release form.

Jim

January 15, 2001, 09:08 PM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,871	Warn the customer and refuse to work on the firearm. Once the gunsmith works on said "unsafe firearm", and returns the gun to the owner, and the owner becomes injured during the course of using said gun, then the gunsmith may be liable under the theory of negligence. Specificlly, breach of the duty to warn or make safe said firearm prior to returning it. Mind you, the gunsmith should not "keep" said firearm even though it is unsafe and should not be fired. Doing so gives rise to the classical tort, Conversion, which is substantial interference with the chattel (property) of another. The remedy is a "forced sale" where the tortfeasor must pay for the item (generally fair market value). Keeping said firearm also gives rise to criminal liability in the form of theft. Opps. We don't want the merry lads of the ATF unnecessarily involved, do we? Thanks for an interesting topic! __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 17, 2001, 02:31 AM	#6
Danomite 45 Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 12	unsafe gun Jim, At our shop we commonly find a firearm unsafe upon closer inspection. if the gun, let's say a damascus Bbl, is usafe with modern ammo, we make a note of that on the work order and have the customer sign it before it is returned. If it is a modifcation, such as removing the ugly new hammerblock safety on the new '94 winchesters, we make a note on the work order that the customer understands and assumes all responsibility. it is quite simple realy. some people who want work done are just plain ignorant and it is our job to educate them, within reason. Somethings are just not done though, like Ken said, "use your head". Daniel

January 15, 2001, 09:00 PM	#1
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	This is a bit different from another thread which advises to always make sure the gun is safe before returning it to the customer. But what about guns that are inherently unsafe, or guns that the customer asks to be "fixed" so they can fire, even though firing is unsafe. I am thinking especially of Damascus barrel shotguns, old rifle, or old revolvers of the "pot metal" type. Customers bring these in to be "checked over" and the guns are sometimes accepted before the gunsmith gets a good look. Does he return the gun, knowing it could harm a shooter? Does he warn the owner? What happens if the owner will not listen to a warning? Can a gunsmith keep the gun unless the customer signs a release? There is also the case of guns that were deactivated because they were unsafe. People who knew what they are doing often removed or broke firing pins in these guns to keep them from being fired, but a new generation wants them "fixed". What does the gunsmith do in this case? Just some questions to start a discussion. Jim

January 15, 2001, 10:00 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,419	You do what one of my gunsmiths used to do... Return the gun to the customer, with a carbon "refused to work on gun" reciept listing the reasons why, and have the customer read it and sign it. That then goes into a file that you keep until you close up your shop. That way you have evidentiary proof that the customer knew the problems with the gun as well as the fact that you refused to work on it. Goes a long way in case you're sued.

January 15, 2001, 10:25 PM	#4
bullseye Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 1999 Posts: 282	Jim, after reading your posts on this subject I have to commend you on your integrity. I'm sure some smiths looking for a buck would take these guns in and do just what the customer asks. You're the sort of person I would want to do business with.

January 16, 2001, 04:03 AM	#5
Ken Cook Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 1999 Location: Hot Springs AR. USA Posts: 265	The standard reply at my shop was always to refuse to work on the gun. It's really annoying to think of all the times some bozo has come in with an aluminum RG revolver and wanted it fixed up. Same with ancient .22 rifles and damask barreled shotguns. I've seen .22 rifles come in with as many as eleven (count'em 11!) rings in the barrel where some idiot had a round stick in the chamber and just kept pulling the trigger until "all th' bulits comed out." There have been a VERY few occasions when someone has brought in a very old gun in rough shape and I've done cosmetic work only. This has always entailed draw filing and polishing the pits out of the exterior as much as possible, repairing or replacing cracked or broken grips and re-finishing. I always advise the customer that this action will destroy any collectablity the gun may have and that it will NOT be safe to fire or in a firing condition when I'm done. I then hand over a form for them to sign with their name, address, phone number, make/model of the gun and the serial number requiring them to acknowledge that this firearm will NEVER be safe to fire and authorizing me to disable the gun so as to make it inoperable. In the past I've gone so far as to not only remove the firing pin, but to have a friend tig weld the firing pin hole CLOSED.

January 17, 2001, 02:35 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just to show you what we are up against. I once removed the firing pins from a Damascus double barrel for an old fellow who wanted to make sure it could not be fired. He took the firing pins with him. A couple of years later, after the old fellow died, his son came in with the gun and insisted the firing pins be put back in, as he wanted the gun "original, for collecting". I warned him repeatedly not to fire it and he swore he had no such intent. Three days later he blew off two fingers shooting magnum shells. He didn't sue, but at least I had two good independent witnesses, even though the shop did not use a release form. Jim