Case for DA/SA…

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by totaldla

There was a time when semi-auto pistols were a bit of a novelty and nobody really cared about accuracy beyond 20 feet. Most American police carried revolvers.
When the European "experts" were allowed to dictate pistol designs, DA/SA & Mag disconnects were "required" without any supporting evidence that these "features" were solving real problems. But that really didn't matter because handgun ownership and competitive shooting hadn't really taken off in America.

I remember quite well the impact Glock had with a consistent trigger pull and all the controversy over a chambered round. Things that are so passe today.

The adoption of the Beretta by the military simply delayed the inevitable - people were flocking to consistent trigger pull and ditching DA/SA.

The DA/SA semi-auto pistol design was always a solution in search of a problem.

IMHO of course.

Such safety features are often demanded by the clients, military, police etc. Civilian market just follows suit. The problem (demand) is already there.

I shoot my Glock 23 with reset trigger. It is almost like a DA/SA. If I don't reset the trigger (totally let go of the trigger after each shot) the trigger is indeed consistent DA-like.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Drm50]

Couple months ago I bought boy a CZ-75. I forget further nomenclature, it’s a discontinued model. He found it because he couldn’t wait to get a deal on a Browning HP.
Ok the point is he just got it and had shot a box of S&B 9mm, more less plinking. He is already taking about trigger kits, aftermarket performance parts, etc. How many shooters are capable of gaining any advantage from this stuff? Not many is my answer. These combat style pistols are for shooting people either defensively or offensively. Neither one is match shooting. If not involved in competition you are better off to put the money into ammo and range time.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

It is in the sense that the first successful DA/SA pistols were European designs.

Point taken. I was reacting to the implication in the original comment that these designs were seemingly forced upon ignorant Americans by Europeans who thought they knew better, without acknowledging that the designs themselves were popular with Americans even in the presence of other options. People actually did, and some still do, like DA/SA, which is why American manufacturers then designed and produced their own pistols with that action type.

[Metric]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Speaking for myself, I don’t adjust my grip between the first DA shot and the following SA shot. As far as trigger finger position, I think of shooting a DA/SA pistol as the initial DA pull and then resetting the trigger for each pull afterwards. Even in non-DA pistols the reset point can be different than the initial starting position, so the finger may have to make some adjustments.

Since this is the second time speed has been mentioned, below is a video of Ben Stoeger discussing how he trains with DA/SA. If you watch this and the next video where he is doing live fire you’ll see he’s not adjusting his grip between his first and following shots and he’s still quite fast.

https://youtu.be/VYfOM4up4dU?si=hfiIzTKwJqtE_QWM

https://youtu.be/nmesYY4W1wE?si=y3KZLD9F6VsG7QSd

Again the Shadow 2 is pretty common in USPSA and if speed with DA/SA was a large hurdle it wouldn’t be as popular as it is. Now I’m not saying everyone, including myself, is as fast as say Stoeger, but the idea that the shot process needs to be completely reset between DA and SA to the point where it’s a significant hindrance is shown not to be the case for many people that put the time into this. As I said earlier, if a person doesn’t want to put the time into getting to that level, that’s their call. I think a fair argument against DA/SA is that some people find it takes longer to build the same proficiency with it as other trigger systems.

I'm not arguing that DA/SA makes it impossible to become competent, proficient, or fast. But, adding transitions between shots, larger muscle movements, and requiring larger forces can effect the precision/speed/efficiency of the system in only one direction. And it's not in the direction of making you a better shot.

It may be that the trade-off for the perceived safety of hammer down carry is worth it to some people, for some use cases. But the trade-off is real, and unavoidable. I don't personally have a need for it.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Metric

I'm not arguing that DA/SA makes it impossible to become competent, proficient, or fast. But, adding transitions between shots, larger muscle movements, and requiring larger forces can effect the precision/speed/efficiency of the system in only one direction. And it's not in the direction of making you a better shot.

It may be that the trade-off for the perceived safety of hammer down carry is worth it to some people, for some use cases. But the trade-off is real, and unavoidable. I don't personally have a need for it.

My point was some of the difficulty can be mitigated, like many things, with training, and in my experience a lot of people don’t like things without necessarily spending the time to get better at them. The videos are meant as tips for other people working on getting better with DA/SA, and also to illustrate that some of your points about DA/SA, from my experience, don’t always hold true.

I will reiterate again on this thread that I have said that if someone didn’t want to invest that training that it was their call. It’s completely reasonable to share why you don’t like DA/SA, as to a large extent that is the point of this thread.

[RickB]

Post-war fascination with the P-38 set back service pistol design for decades.
DA/SA is a bureaucrat's gun, something that an administrator would choose for people who have to do the actual shooting.
I had one for a short time, put maybe 200 rounds through it, then quickly sold it on.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

1. I like a heavy first pull instead of a safety.
2. I like having a second strike with the pull of a trigger in case a primer doesn't ignite right away.
3. I like to have the ability to place a thumb on the hammer when holstering.
4. I don't have to pull the trigger to remove the slide.
5. While most DA/SA triggers have some take up, it doesn't feel like a staple gun.
6. I don't like triggers with a "dingus" or an extra hinge in the middle.

[Nathan]

I think that there are options today that make it appealing to a smaller share of the overall handgun market, but for some people, the DA/SA fills a niche that other handguns don't.

I think this is where I get into trouble. I need to seek to understand both the use case for DA/SA and for safetyless striker guns with pretty short and light triggers for what they are used for.

I consider both of those cases as a bit of a training issue more than a real case. This is honestly, probably me not hearing the case as valid.

At this point I’ve converted to an SA or striker gun with well shootable triggers and manual safeties. I’m comfortable enough where I’m at.

Still interested in learning. That said, i don’t have to shoot DA to SA transitions well. I hope someone is doing that under 0.4s.

[JohnKSa]

I need to seek to understand both the use case for DA/SA...

There's no deep insight. I think you have all the pieces to the puzzle already.

That is great, but DA to SA has proven difficult to master at speed. Really an unnecessary challenge. Many say they have mastered it, but measure shot to shot times and it is usually quite clear.

So, what is the case for DA/SA. I have nothing against it.

If a person won't carry an SA with the hammer cocked (or doesn't like/isn't comfortable with any designs that allow this carry method), then comparing SA-to-SA shot times with DA-to-SA shot times doesn't fit the actual situation. One would need to compare thumbcocking an SA for the first shot (or maybe racking the slide to chamber a round and cock the hammer) and then shooting a second shot SA to shooting the first shot DA and the second shot SA.

If people are comfortable with cocked and locked, or with pistols that can be carried that way, then they would likely be carrying that way. The fact that they are not means that option is probably off the table for them and so it doesn't make sense to use it as a basis for comparison.

I think the two biggest reasons that people (who have thought about the issue vs. just buying a gun that they like) have for buying DA/SA is that they:

Want to carry a chambered round but don't want to or can't carry an SA cocked and locked.
or
Want to carry a gun without a safety but don't want to manually chamber a round before shooting and don't want to or can't carry a striker-fired gun.

[44 AMP]

I suppose one possible reason we "still" have DA/SA semi autos is because it gives people options.

Of the dozens of pistols I've owned over the years, only 4 have been DA/SA designs.

The Mauser HSc, and the Walther P.38 because of their historical significance, not because of their function.

The Browning BDA .45, which is a true gem, and I feel the best DA/SA service class pistol.

and a truly unique one, the Wildey .45 Win Mag. I have no clue why Wildey designed it that way, but he did.

[Sevens]

Just because you have a decocker doesn’t mean you can’t carry cocked and locked. The S&W 4506 and 1006 for example. The safety lever has 3 positions, on safe, fire and decock. You can carry cocked and lock, one click down to fire, push all the way down to decock.

Haha I am a little shocked that this group let you get away with this post.

What you wrote here is interesting for sure… it’s also absolutely false.

It’s especially curious that you brought up a 1006 in to the conversation too. The 1006 setup is the same as the 4506 (and the 5906 and the 4006) and they all work the same, and NOT the way you detailed in your post.

Lever forward/horizontal and you can fire. Long double action if the hammer is down or short pull single action if your hammer is cocked.

If/when you lower that slide-mounted lever, the pistol is made safe. If it was cocked, the hammer will fall in concert with the lever throw, and it will be decocked. If the hammer was already down, nothing will fall but your trigger will be wholly disconnected from the hammer and the sear.

There were precious few S&W 1-2-3rd Gen pistols with the ability to cock & lock, and of those precious few, none had decock levers. (52, 745, 845, 3566 Limited, 952, Super 9, PPC-9, 4006 Limited)

[Jim Watson]

There were precious few S&W 1-2-3rd Gen pistols with the ability to cock & lock, and of those precious few, none had decock levers. (52, 745, 845, 3566 Limited, 952, Super 9, PPC-9, 4006 Limited)

My M52 doesn't exactly "cock and lock". Maybe "cock and block". Move the slide lever down and the firing pin is blocked, but pull the trigger and the hammer will fall against the safety shaft.

[Mike P. Wagner]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I understand the way people perceive comments obviously varies person to person, but in either this thread or the other I don’t remember a comment questioning the manliness of having the safety variant.

A fair and correct comment. I was not referring to this thread - but there seems to me a lot of animus in other discussions against an "unnecessary" safety on a DA/SA pistol.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mike P. Wagner

A fair and correct comment. I was not referring to this thread - but there seems to me a lot of animus in other discussions against an "unnecessary" safety on a DA/SA pistol.

I don’t think a person saying they think a manual safety on a DA/SA is unnecessary is the same as questioning someone’s manliness, though. I don’t want a manual safety on a DA/SA pistol because I think it’s superfluous, not because I’m afraid it will put my masculinity into question.

At the end of the day what some other person chooses to use to defend themselves is their business, and unless it directly impacts my safety I generally don’t care.

[603Country]

I have a PX4, type F, which is exactly what I wanted. Great pistol. Soft shooter. The transition from DA to SA is noticeable. I shoot better SA than the first shot in DA, no doubt. My next pistol will be a FN Reflex with a manual safety, when that pistol becomes available. We all have our reasons and comfort zone.

[ftttu]

My first duty pistol was a S&W 5906, which for those who don’t know is a stainless steel DA/SA 9mm. That and other similar S&W DA/SA pistols were passed around at the start of our academy for us to choose from so we could order them from GT Distributors.

Within the next couple of years, a new academy class started, and they all had to go S&W DAO due to the movement at the time. I absolutely hated DAO! Also, I was a gun guy, and to me, a DAO was only for those who weren’t.

Somewhere close to that time, our firearms instructor was talking good about the crazy-angled and blockish pistols from a foreign land where the magazine wouldn’t fall freely when released due to the designer not wanting the magazine to fall into the snow of this foreign land. Also, those pistols were plastic, came in a Tupperware container, and had a funny name.

The downside, to me at the time, was that it wasn’t a DAO. I like quirky schtuff, so after learning more about Glocks, I wanted to carry one. My firearms instructor pushed for a policy change, and when he said it was going to happen, I ordered my first - a G17 gen 2. I qualified with it and had received a holster I ordered for it, and I was the first to carry one the day the new policy came out.

Time went by, and I went to a G19 because it fit my hand better AND for off duty carry. And just as I did with the G17, I did the same thing with a G23 when our policy changed to allow us to carry .40 SW. Yep, first to carry .40 and a G23 the day the new policy dropped.

Being a gun guy, I looked at other polymer offerings. I got an Hk USP with the stainless slide, but I got rid of that fast because of the TERRIBLE DAO trigger. I think I went to a Beretta Cougar 8040D for a while since I liked their DAO trigger, but then I went to a SIG P2000. I absolutely loved that trigger and everything about that pistol. I remember other officers trying it out, and they were amazed at just how light and smooth that ‘DAO’ trigger was.

Being a gun guy, I got a Beretta 96D, and the SIG was used for bike patrol duty and off duty carry. I eventually went back to a G23 for a while before retiring from that agency. Additionally, I carried agency issued G17 gen 4 and 5 at the agency I just retired from.

So, with a brief history of my 11 duty weapons, I just want to say that my trigger preference had changed over the years, relating to LE use after gaining street and supervisory experience. With the loss of fine finger movements under stress due to the tachypsychia effect, which I even experienced in intense training, I became a convert to a non-DA/SA trigger. I was pushed begrudgingly to them at first, but time and experience won out.

If I was an agency head, my policy wouldn’t allow my officers to carry a DA/SA on or off duty. I couldn’t imagine me ever stating this years before, but with ever-increasing liability, officer preference has left the building along with Elvis.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by ftttu

Being a gun guy, I looked at other polymer offerings. I got an Hk USP with the stainless slide, but I got rid of that fast because of the TERRIBLE DAO trigger. I think I went to a Beretta Cougar 8040D for a while since I liked their DAO trigger, but then I went to a SIG P2000. I absolutely loved that trigger and everything about that pistol. I remember other officers trying it out, and they were amazed at just how light and smooth that ‘DAO’ trigger was.

There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.

[jar]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.

There was the SigPro SP2009 that was the first of the plastic Sigs.



Would love to find another one.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by jar

There was the SigPro SP2009 that was the first of the plastic Sigs.



Would love to find another one.

True, but given the description I think he’s describing HK’s LEM more than SIG’s DAK. Maybe he’ll come back and let us know.

[jar]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

True, but given the description I think he’s describing HK’s LEM more than SIG’s DAK. Maybe he’ll come back and let us know.

The SP2009 was DA/SA but with a fantastic trigger in DA mode.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by jar

The SP2009 was DA/SA but with a fantastic trigger in DA mode.

Except he specifically mentioned DAO, which would be DAK for SIG. I’m not sure if SIG did a DAK 2009/2022. If not then it’s even more likely it was the HK P2000.

[ftttu]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.

TunnelRat, thanks for catching that, I should have proofread before posting.

Also, after retiring first time, I sold my G23 and went 9mm due to thinking my shaking near the end of firing a 50 round qual course had something to do with the shock of shooting a .40. It later turned out I have intention tremor, but with the claimed advancements in 9mm technology, I didn’t fret it.

So, right at retirement, I could have gone with any pistol my wife would allow, and I still went with a DAO type of trigger. For main carry, I went with an (SIG) Hk VP9 and a TP9SA for my truck gun - both known to have good trigger.

Lastly, I wasn’t against DA/SA since I loved my 2 Browning BDA 380s, but I reasoned I couldn’t trust a light trigger with worsening tremors. They’ve leveled out, and I went back full time as a LEO after being retired 5.5 years. I’m out again as of a few days ago, and I will now stick with my P365XL during my permanent retirement.

[stinkeypete]

How many people have been injured because they could not master the DA trigger pull vs how many have shot themselves?
We don't have the statistics but then again... I can shoot a revolver DA or SA.

If you assess it's better to be cocked and locked, you have the option. If you're crawling around in the brush on your hands and knees looking for Bambi's dad, maybe you use the decocker.

If you trained on a Beretta in the service, it seems natural to you.

[5whiskey]

How did I miss this discussion? I'm actually a pretty big fan of DA/SA. To whoever said they can't be shot fast... the CZ P09 was (still is in a lesser way) quite popular in the competition circuit. Do they win as many major comps as Glock? Probably not. Does CZ invest as much into sponsoring shooters and supplying them? Definitely not.

My split times with my CZ P07 are no slower than with my issued Glock G45. Of course I've shot DA/SA pistols for years. We were issued SIG P220s once upon a time. I'm actually a big fan of a good DA/SA for duty carry. That long first trigger pull helps ensure that is deliberate, amd follow on shots with a good DA/SA can be quite accurate. But the pistols are not as easy to service for sure.

[44 AMP]

many years ago, Mas Ayoob said that the SA semi auto was better for the solider, who generally sees the enemy and shoots them more than he holds that at gunpoint. And the DA/SA semi was a better choice for the police, who frequently hold suspects at gunpoint, where the long, heavier DA pull helped reduce accidental shootings.

I don't see how that has changed any in the years since.

Since my days as a solider are nearly 50 years in the past, and I never was, or will be a police officer, I'm pretty flexible about some things.