S&W 617 DA issue - please help

[RodTheWrench]

I've had a model 686 6" PowerPort for years, my absolute favorite wheelgun. At my NRA Pistol Instructor class in February, the Training Counselor had a model 617 on the range in case anyone wanted to qualify with it. I'm ashamed to admit I had never in my 42 years ever heard of a 10-shot in 22LR that was the EXACT dimensions(?) as my 686. Needless to say, I used it to qualify, fell in love/lust, repented quickly of my ignorance and commenced a search for one. Long story short, they are hard to find and fetch a handsome penny so I was happy to see one pop up on the local classifieds here in Utah for a decent price, so I snagged it last week. Model 617-4, Serial CDK4***.

Here's a picture:
image (75).jpg

You may be able to tell that the hammer and trigger have been "jeweled", which I could take or leave. Here's the video of the issue which should explain the problem pretty well, but I'll add more afterwards.

http://youtu.be/f6Y5P76ucro

I hope it's clear enough, and what I REALLY hope is that I didn't get taken by the guy that sold this gun to me. It's in overall excellent visual condition, it was a little carboned-up at the front of the cylinder etc but nothing out of the ordinary, just looked like someone took it shooting and didn't clean it afterwards.

So is this issue most likely due to whoever took the hammer and trigger out to polish them screwing something up, or is this a common issue with these guns? I have NEVER had a Smith revolver do that to me in ANY configuration OR caliber.

It seems to me that the "catch" happens just when the cylinder is about to rotate, but it's hung up for some reason. isn't it weird though that I can pull it into SA no problem when this happens?

Oh, it may also be helpful to know that when I took it to the range for the first time it seemed to run well, no case bulging issues or anything like you can watch folks have on YouTube. There was one FTF but I chalked that up to using old ammo.

[MrBorland]

Since it works fine in SA, I'm gonna rule out the cylinder release slide blocking the back of the hammer, as well as the trigger not engaging the cylinder stop bolt.

My bet is the DA sear. It may be too long or short, or it's not be fully resetting reliably, in which case, the hammer nose may be getting jammed between the trigger nose and cam. Check out the pick below. When the DA trigger's pulled, the trigger nose pushes up on the DA sear until the trigger cam seamlessly engages the bottom of the hammer nose (under the SA sear). If the DA sear isn't just so, the cam engagement will be off, and if the geometry's just right, all can jam shortly into the DA pull, just as yours is doing. It won't do this in SA because the DA sear isn't used. If all this is right, a good gunsmith can easily fix it. Might be as easy as a good internal cleaning & lubing.

[dgludwig]

I had never in my 42 years ever heard of a 10-shot in 22LR that was the EXACT dimensions(?) as my 686.

They're not "exact" as the Model 617 is a K-frame configured revolver and the Model 686 is an L-frame. As far as your trigger pull problem goes, I think MrBorland's explanation is right on the mark.

[James K]

The video seems to show that the cylinder stop is not releasing the cylinder when it should. That could be a problem with the hand, the DA sear, or the cylinder stop itself, but there would be no way to be sure without seeing the gun.

As a general note, that engine turning should have been a warming, not a bonus. Any time someone has been inside a revolver, there is a chance that they have messed something up. And the engine turning means they were trying to "improve" something by polishing and grinding. In other words, that work should have been like a neon sign reading "avoid this gun".

Unless you want to buy a bunch of parts and play it by ear, the best bet might be to return the gun to S&W; considering what has been done to it, they will probably charge for repairs and replace the hammer and trigger with ones at factory spec, but the gun will work right. A local gunsmith might well do a very fine job, but a local gunsmith may have messed it up in the first place.

Jim

[Sevens]

While I like MrBorland's in-depth run down here, James K has my vote by far. The jeweling of the trigger and hammer is not even possible unless the gun has been taken apart and unless that's been done by someone with extreme care, it's a big waving red flag.

I also wholeheartedly agree that (by far) the best thing to do now is to contact Smith & Wesson. And here are a couple reasons why that's a great idea...

They have the tools, parts and absolute know-how to make that revolver function properly. They also will do that work for less money than anyone who is qualified. And they'll do it with a shorter turn-around time than anyone else who is qualified.

There are some knock-out awesome revolversmiths out in the world, but most are backlogged and their work is a fine art and it will cost the kind of money that a new revolver costs. Totally worth the money AND the wait, but if what you need is that revolver working as it was designed, Smith & Wesson is your answer.

You will be charged for parts. I doubt they would agree to do -ANY- work that included those pimp-jeweled parts. Poor revolver might as well have curb feelers on it. (sorry)

As for what the actual problem is:
I'm curious and couldn't tell for sure by the video... After the problem is "cleared" by a single action cock & drop, does the double action problem re-occur at the TENTH shot? If this seems to be the case, I would imagine the issue is at the ratchet on the cylinder. And what CAUSED it in the first place... haha... likely has to do with whomever farted around inside that revolver, unqualified to do so.

I hope you got a good price on it, because I like to root for the good in people, but I find it awfully hard to believe your seller was entirely unaware that his revolver didn't work properly.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Sevens

There are some knock-out awesome revolversmiths out in the world, but most are backlogged and their work is a fine art and it will cost the kind of money that a new revolver costs. Totally worth the money AND the wait, but if what you need is that revolver working as it was designed, Smith & Wesson is your answer.

Sending it back to S&W is, of course, a viable option, and if the problem involved something intricate, they (or a top revo 'smith) would be course I recommend. But I get the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that the fix is pretty straightforward, and if so, a local competent 'smith would save the hassle of shipping (and paying for it) the gun to & from S&W and paying for the repair anyway. If the OP doesn't have a good 'smith locally, sure, I'd recommend sending it to S&W.

Once fixed, please do post a follow-up, as we'd be interested in hearing how it got resolved.

EDIT: Oh, yeah - I forgot to mention the other reason I had for getting it fixed locally: Aesthetics aside, it may not need a new hammer & trigger, yet it's likely S&W will replace them anyway, then simply write on the repair order "replaced hammer & trigger". You'll pay for the hammer & trigger of course, but you won't know what the precise problem was, either. Not a biggie if you're not curious and just want it fixed and don't mind buying a hammer & trigger you might not have really needed.

[SteelChickenShooter]

I appreciate the 10-shot 617 as well. Just had to have one after seeing and shooting one for the very first time at the range. In my case, mine was purchased new and has had no alterations. Has always been flawless in any firing mode and at any rate of fire. I carry it holstered at camp and everyone always mistakes it for a .357. They're somewhat floored when they see it's a 10-shot .22
I can only guess if you have any malfunctions, the cause is likely to be related to any doctoring of the action.

[RodTheWrench]

Wow guys, thanks for all the help! It does appear that the cylinder lock is not dropping down when the cylinder is about to rotate and jamming up the DA.

I'll re-post when it's resolved, but I do feel kind of foolish because I got so excited to have one of these that I didn't heed the obvious red flags - something I normally do as I buy, sell and trade quite a bit. I guess you're never too old to learn a lesson...again.

[James K]

If MrBorland doesn't mind, I would like to use his excellent pictures to show how S&W eliminated stacking in the DA trigger pull.

If you watch that mechanism in operation, you will see that as the trigger engages the DA sear and the hammer comes back, the cam part D moves up under the lug (marked B) with the SA sear notch. As the trigger continues back, the cam takes over the job of moving the hammer from the DA sear, and the DA sear goes out of contact with the trigger. That "handover" changes the leverage of the DA pull and the DA sear does not end up parallel with the top of the trigger, the position that causes stacking. It also has the added advantage of taking strain off the DA sear at the time spring pressure on the hammer is greatest. It is a very clever system and one that has served S&W well for close to a century.

Jim

[MrBorland]

Jim's explanation is very good.

A smooth "handover" is really important, so everything's gotta be just so. Below is another pic from the series. It was originally made to describe manual lowering of the hammer, but it shows, in reverse, what happens during the DA pull. The handover from DA sear to cam is shown in pic #4, while pic 3 shows how the hammer & trigger just after the trigger pull breaks clean.

[RodTheWrench]

Sorry I let this thread die without an answer to the issue! Here it is, at least for now.

I found the cylinder release to not be dropping out of the way.

So, I didn't take the gun apart, but I took off the grips and blasted the heck out of anything sticking out of the frame that moves with Hornady OneShot. You would not believe the amount of black crud that came puking out of every nook and cranny - took 3 good dousing/wiping/low-pressure air compressor nozzlings for it to come out clear. I dropped Rem Oil down the slot for the cylinder release and a couple other places, wiped any residue up and put the gun away for a week or so til I was able to take it to the range.

Happy to report that the gun works GREAT now, I've fired several brands of 22LR through it and it's happy shooting DA or SA. I'm in love with the SA trigger - as soon as you even THINK "that's a great sight picture", she's sending the shot downrange. Not a hair trigger mind you, but an extremely nice break- almost imperceptible.

SO thank you all for your vast knowledge and helpfulness - if I have other issues I definitely know where to go!

And I promise to thoroughly clean any new gun before I say it has a problem

[James K]

Great news. I was afraid that the guy who did the jeweling might have polished off too much of the trigger so it wouldn't move the cylinder stop enough. That would have meant a new trigger.

Jim

[spacecoast]

Does anyone have thoughts about dry firing a rimfire revolver? I have always thought it is a No-No.

[g.willikers]

Something to think about.
From the look of the hammer, that model must have a hammer block.
But that shouldn't prevent the hammer from hitting the back of the cylinder when the trigger is pulled.

[DaleA]

To RodTheWrench: I think the really important point here that everyone seems to be missing (including you) is that you HAVE a 617 and I do NOT.

If I had been in your situation... that is, finding a 617 at a "decent price" I would have snapped it up too.

I suspect that had I noticed the problem yours had...I would have tried to get the guy to come down in price and if they hadn't budged I would have bought it anyway.

Congratulations on scoring a gun that I'm sure you will enjoy and probably your kids too.

[RodTheWrench]

There is enough clearance on the 617 so that dry-firing is not an issue. I definitely WOULD say however that you shouldn't do that on a lot (most?) 22 handguns as there is potential to damage the firing pin. I'm sure there's folks here smarter than me that could educate us on which ones.

[g.willikers]

Ruger semi auto pistols are ok to dry fire.
They have a cross pin that prevents the firing pin from hitting the rear of the barrel.

[James K]

Modern .22 revolvers are set up so that the firing pin (whether hammer mounted or frame mounted) will not contact the cylinder if dry fired. Other rimfire guns are made with a positive hammer block so that the firing pin will not contact the breech face.

Most of the concern about dryfiring rimfire guns came from the old days, when firing pins often did strike the breech face if dry fired. Add the hundreds of thousands of old guns which had factory firing pins replaced with pieces of bolts, old nails and the like, by amateur gunsmiths and gun owners, and it is easy to see where the warning came from. But it does not apply to modern guns unless they have been tampered with.

Jim