.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests

Andrew Wiggin · June 22, 2013, 11:38 PM

.357 test video

Underwood .357 158 gr Hex plated fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0 fps, 3.1"

Impact velocity: (err)
Penetration: 27.5"
Retained weight: 157.7 gr
Expansion: None

A few notes on this one. It was overcast, making it difficult to get a good velocity reading. Underwood advertises 1,475 fps for this load and their claimed velocity is usually very close to actual. One shot curved and left the block on the bottom, the other came very close to exiting the block on the top. I cannot say for sure whether there was expansion on the shot that exited but based on the dramatically larger stretch cavity, I think it is likely. Nevertheless, this bullet is at least capable of failing to expand. Recoil was mild for a .357 mag.

10mm test video

10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

lamarw · June 23, 2013, 12:11 AM

Thank You~ It doesn't raise my desire for a 10mm.

KyJim · June 23, 2013, 12:18 AM

What are hex plated bullets? Underwood doesn't list them on their website.

Andrew Wiggin · June 23, 2013, 11:25 AM

They are made by Rainier. Underwood now uses Gold Dots, I think.

lamarw, this one test isn't very representative of 10mm's potential. Please see some of my other tests to get a sense of what it can do. 10mm carries about the same energy as .357 mag but tends to expand to a larger diameter because it started at a larger diameter. In a double stack pistol like a Glock or Witness you get 14 rounds. Lots of folks choose 10mm for bear defense in the lower 48.

lamarw · June 23, 2013, 12:29 PM

Thanks Andrew, I am no knocking the 10mm. I have heard it was a handgun of choice for some bears. In my part of this small world, wild hogs seem to be a somewhat larger danger.

I wonder how a heavy load in the .45 Colt compares to the 10mm? Of course we are then back to six rounds.

Old Stony · June 23, 2013, 05:01 PM

Lots of punch in those 10mm's, plus some good high cap pistols for them too. It makes for a good pistol to carry in the woods with you.

KyJim · June 23, 2013, 09:39 PM

I have a 1911 10mm and have shot some Underwood ammo including the Gold Dots. I was just concerned that the ammo component shortage had caused them to go to a different bullet. That happened in 2008 with another manufacturer. Thanks for the clarification.

Stevie-Ray · June 24, 2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

I wonder how a heavy load in the .45 Colt compares to the 10mm? Of course we are then back to six rounds.

There is no comparison. Heavy .45 Colt loads surpass .44 Magnum and nobody compares the .44 to 10mm. Don't get me wrong, I personally use the 10mm for my woods gun. But black bear is the biggest thing I can potentially face. They would also do you well for hogs.

Old Stony · June 24, 2013, 09:15 PM

I've seen tests where the bullet hitting heavy fabric or leather such as a jacket, caused the hollow point to close up instead of opening up, could this be the case here?

2000ShadowACE · June 25, 2013, 08:22 AM

For me personally, if I was in Bear country I would be carrying my .357 with jacketed soft points for penetration. Hollow points are great for a human target where the bullet only has to go a few inches deep to hit a vital organ, but on a black bear the bullet has to punch through thick fur and several inches of fat before it gets to anything that might be vital.

Winchester_73 · June 25, 2013, 08:33 AM

Are not the advantages of 10mm to 357 mag obvious? The 10mm bullet is bigger and heavier, and it can meet or surpass 357 mag velocity in comparable bullet weights. Aside from that, you can get either in an auto, and either in a revolver, so platform isn't a big issue.

Not sure what (or why) the comparison is for these or were these videos intended to show us a gelatin test for the underwood hex bullets?

Ruger45LC · June 25, 2013, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winchester_73

Are not the advantages of 10mm to 357 mag obvious? The 10mm bullet is bigger and heavier, and it can meet or surpass 357 mag velocity in comparable bullet weights. Aside from that, you can get either in an auto, and either in a revolver, so platform isn't a big issue.

There are advantages to both I think. The 10mm has a caliber advantage and a capacity advantage and as a whole, a platform advantage I think.

But power wise, while the 10mm might be able to squeak out a little more than a .357 Mag with similar weight bullets and barrel length, but it won't be by a big margin. In that case the .357 would have better sectional density and penetrate better, so advantage .357 there. Compare a 155gr 10mm @ 1400 fps vs a 158gr .357 Mag at 1400 fps and the .357 will far out penetrate the 10mm.

silvrjeepr · June 25, 2013, 11:00 AM

I like and own both.

15 rounds of 10mm > 6 rounds of 357.

Otherwise they're pretty close across the average loads. Yeah you can nit pick and find a load for either that out performs the other on some level.

Interesting enough, I've seen 10mm ammo appearing on the shelves again around here. I guess they don't sell out as fast as the more popular cals.

K4THRYN · June 25, 2013, 02:24 PM

.357mag can be found in offerings anywhere from around 400 ft/lbs to almost 800 ft/lbs. 357 doesn't typically have to contend with a recoil spring, so there's a lot of variety in actual 'power' of .357 loads.

10mm loads are more consistent, and are clustered together at the upper end of .357's power range (600-800 ft/lbs). except there are lighter 10mm loads, intended for softer recoil springs, which mimic the power band of the .40S&W pretty closely (450-600 ft/lbs).

they both make nice holes, and can be tailored to fire with more or less 'oomf' in similar power ranges. I think the 10mm goes slightly hotter at the top end.

Andrew Wiggin · June 26, 2013, 04:20 AM

I'm sorry. I didn't intend these to be a comparison. They're just the two loads that I tested this week.

Mystro · June 26, 2013, 08:33 AM

I hunted with the 10mm, 357, 44, 45, 454. On deer size game I found the 10mm superior to the 357mag on all occasions. That's not to say the 357mag isnt a bad choice but bigger is always better in handgun hunting. The platform is where there isn't a contest with the 10mm over a 357mag revolver. A Glock 20 has soooooooo much more fire power over a revolver. Multiple hits are always better in a defense role in and out of the woods. For that matter, you can find a few good 40s&w rounds in the 500ftlbs + range that would be a good woods gun holding ALOT more rounds than a 357 mag revolver.

Andrew Wiggin · July 1, 2013, 01:36 PM

If your only two choices were 10mm or .357 mag, you'll get better penetration out of the .357 in a similar bullet weight and greater tissue disruption from the 10mm. The 10mm can handle heavier bullets, though, and as you mentioned, it can hold a lot more of them. I think both have their place and both are very capable cartridges.

I'd really like to see someone make a lever action 10mm rifle.

silvrjeepr · July 2, 2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

If your only two choices were 10mm or .357 mag, you'll get better penetration out of the .357 in a similar bullet weight and greater tissue disruption from the 10mm. The 10mm can handle heavier bullets, though, and as you mentioned, it can hold a lot more of them. I think both have their place and both are very capable cartridges.

I'd really like to see someone make a lever action 10mm rifle.

A 10mm lever would be VERY interesting! I'd buy one for sure.

coldbeer · July 5, 2013, 08:34 AM

The 357 magnum is the more powerfull cartridge. Shoot them out of a long barrel and it's not even close the ten can't keep up.

June 22, 2013, 11:38 PM	#1
Andrew Wiggin Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 516	.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests .357 test video Underwood .357 158 gr Hex plated fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin. BB calibration: 585.0 fps, 3.1" Impact velocity: (err) Penetration: 27.5" Retained weight: 157.7 gr Expansion: None A few notes on this one. It was overcast, making it difficult to get a good velocity reading. Underwood advertises 1,475 fps for this load and their claimed velocity is usually very close to actual. One shot curved and left the block on the bottom, the other came very close to exiting the block on the top. I cannot say for sure whether there was expansion on the shot that exited but based on the dramatically larger stretch cavity, I think it is likely. Nevertheless, this bullet is at least capable of failing to expand. Recoil was mild for a .357 mag. 10mm test video 10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin. BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1" Impact velocity: 1,251 fps Penetration: greater than 17.7" Retained weight: N/A Expansion: N/A Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

June 25, 2013, 11:00 AM	#13
silvrjeepr Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Posts: 213	.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests I like and own both. 15 rounds of 10mm > 6 rounds of 357. Otherwise they're pretty close across the average loads. Yeah you can nit pick and find a load for either that out performs the other on some level. Interesting enough, I've seen 10mm ammo appearing on the shelves again around here. I guess they don't sell out as fast as the more popular cals.

June 26, 2013, 08:33 AM	#16
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 1,528	I hunted with the 10mm, 357, 44, 45, 454. On deer size game I found the 10mm superior to the 357mag on all occasions. That's not to say the 357mag isnt a bad choice but bigger is always better in handgun hunting. The platform is where there isn't a contest with the 10mm over a 357mag revolver. A Glock 20 has soooooooo much more fire power over a revolver. Multiple hits are always better in a defense role in and out of the woods. For that matter, you can find a few good 40s&w rounds in the 500ftlbs + range that would be a good woods gun holding ALOT more rounds than a 357 mag revolver. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

June 23, 2013, 12:11 AM	#2
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Thank You~ It doesn't raise my desire for a 10mm.

June 23, 2013, 12:18 AM	#3
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,149	What are hex plated bullets? Underwood doesn't list them on their website.

June 23, 2013, 11:25 AM	#4
Andrew Wiggin Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 516	They are made by Rainier. Underwood now uses Gold Dots, I think. lamarw, this one test isn't very representative of 10mm's potential. Please see some of my other tests to get a sense of what it can do. 10mm carries about the same energy as .357 mag but tends to expand to a larger diameter because it started at a larger diameter. In a double stack pistol like a Glock or Witness you get 14 rounds. Lots of folks choose 10mm for bear defense in the lower 48.

June 23, 2013, 12:29 PM	#5
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Thanks Andrew, I am no knocking the 10mm. I have heard it was a handgun of choice for some bears. In my part of this small world, wild hogs seem to be a somewhat larger danger. I wonder how a heavy load in the .45 Colt compares to the 10mm? Of course we are then back to six rounds.

June 23, 2013, 05:01 PM	#6
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Lots of punch in those 10mm's, plus some good high cap pistols for them too. It makes for a good pistol to carry in the woods with you.

June 23, 2013, 09:39 PM	#7
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,149	I have a 1911 10mm and have shot some Underwood ammo including the Gold Dots. I was just concerned that the ammo component shortage had caused them to go to a different bullet. That happened in 2008 with another manufacturer. Thanks for the clarification.

June 24, 2013, 09:15 PM	#9
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I've seen tests where the bullet hitting heavy fabric or leather such as a jacket, caused the hollow point to close up instead of opening up, could this be the case here?

June 25, 2013, 08:22 AM	#10
2000ShadowACE Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Location: Eastern Iowa Posts: 69	For me personally, if I was in Bear country I would be carrying my .357 with jacketed soft points for penetration. Hollow points are great for a human target where the bullet only has to go a few inches deep to hit a vital organ, but on a black bear the bullet has to punch through thick fur and several inches of fat before it gets to anything that might be vital.

June 25, 2013, 08:33 AM	#11
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Are not the advantages of 10mm to 357 mag obvious? The 10mm bullet is bigger and heavier, and it can meet or surpass 357 mag velocity in comparable bullet weights. Aside from that, you can get either in an auto, and either in a revolver, so platform isn't a big issue. Not sure what (or why) the comparison is for these or were these videos intended to show us a gelatin test for the underwood hex bullets?

June 25, 2013, 02:24 PM	#14
K4THRYN Member Join Date: November 13, 2012 Posts: 31	.357mag can be found in offerings anywhere from around 400 ft/lbs to almost 800 ft/lbs. 357 doesn't typically have to contend with a recoil spring, so there's a lot of variety in actual 'power' of .357 loads. 10mm loads are more consistent, and are clustered together at the upper end of .357's power range (600-800 ft/lbs). except there are lighter 10mm loads, intended for softer recoil springs, which mimic the power band of the .40S&W pretty closely (450-600 ft/lbs). they both make nice holes, and can be tailored to fire with more or less 'oomf' in similar power ranges. I think the 10mm goes slightly hotter at the top end.

June 26, 2013, 04:20 AM	#15
Andrew Wiggin Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 516	I'm sorry. I didn't intend these to be a comparison. They're just the two loads that I tested this week.

July 1, 2013, 01:36 PM	#17
Andrew Wiggin Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Posts: 516	If your only two choices were 10mm or .357 mag, you'll get better penetration out of the .357 in a similar bullet weight and greater tissue disruption from the 10mm. The 10mm can handle heavier bullets, though, and as you mentioned, it can hold a lot more of them. I think both have their place and both are very capable cartridges. I'd really like to see someone make a lever action 10mm rifle.

July 5, 2013, 08:34 AM	#19
coldbeer Junior member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Woodhaven MI Posts: 477	The 357 magnum is the more powerfull cartridge. Shoot them out of a long barrel and it's not even close the ten can't keep up.