factory crimp question

Bugcola · June 18, 2013, 07:18 PM

Hey all few questions.

for the bullet seating how will i know for sure when its seated right ( a dummy round i made with bullet measured out 1.10)

how will i know if the bullet seating die put a crimp to the bullet and when i install the FCD best way to see it put a nice crimp.

and why is a 308 factory crimp die cheaper then a 9mm..

Ifishsum · June 18, 2013, 09:13 PM

Assuming you're talking about 9mm.....it's seated right when it will feed and chamber reliably in your gun. It depends a lot on the bullet design and your chamber, I would probably test fire a couple dozen before locking into a particular length.

For 9mm you don't really need "crimp" so much as just to make sure any flare is ironed down from the case mouth. The seating die will do that based on how far down the die body itself is set. Properly done, a nice taper crimp doesn't really look like a crimp at all - the case mouth opening is just flat against the bullet (but not flush on the outside).

The FC die is more expensive for pistol rounds because it also resizes your loaded round again to make sure it will chamber. FC dies for bottleneck rifle rounds do not do that.

SVTCobra306 · June 18, 2013, 09:43 PM

I will add that the pistol fcd is also carbide lined.. That alone makes the price difference.

mmb713 · June 18, 2013, 10:21 PM

I use the FCD for 9mm and 45 Auto for pistol and 357 Magnum and 45 Colt for revolvers. For the pistols I've had best results, and the caliper micrometer measurements at the case mouths confirm this, by doing it this way: raise the press ram with shell holder to the top. Screw in the FCD until the die body touches the shell holder and back off the crimping stem. Lower the press and then raise a cartridge with a seated bullet into the die body and lower the crimping stem until it touches the case mouth. Lower the press handle and then screw in the crimping stem 1/2 turn. Now you're set up for a perfect taper crimp, just enough to iron out the flare. With the revolvers I use a half turn with plated bullets for a nice, light roll crimp that doesn't cut the plating. With jacketed bullets at magnum level loads I'll use a 3/4 turn for a firm roll crimp into the cannelure. Lee's instructions say you can use a full turn with the revolvers but I've found 3/4 to be perfect for a firm roll crimp. My rifle is a T/C Encore with 223 and 7mm-08 barrels and I don't crimp those at all. Can't help you with the rifle crimp die.

the led farmer · June 18, 2013, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifishsum

...because it also resizes your loaded round again to make sure it will chamber...

True to a degree- it will not post size a properly constructed round. The instructions state:

Do not expect the carbide sizer to touch every round. It is a fail safe tool for the occasional bad round that could ruin your day.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol4.pdf

mmb713 · June 18, 2013, 10:34 PM

Quote:

how will i know if the bullet seating die put a crimp to the bullet

Adjust your seating die to not put any crimp on your rounds if you will be crimping separately with the FCD. Raise a case to the top in the press ram. Screw in the seating die body with the seating stem removed until you feel the crimping portion of the die body come into contact with the case mouth. Unscrew the die body 1/2 to one turn so that the crimping portion won't touch the case mouth and lock it down. You won't need to adjust the die body ever again. The only adjustments with this die you will make are with the seating stem.

Lost Sheep · June 18, 2013, 10:45 PM

Lee's FCD (Factory Crimp Die) performs two functions. Crimping and post-sizing. The two operations are independent of one another and cometimes work at cross-purposes. With lead bullets, sometimes the post-sizing reduces the grip the case has on the bullet. The grip the case has on the bullet is important for three reasons.

1) It keeps the bullet from being knocked deeper into the case during handling and very important, during feeding. This is most significant in autoloaders

2) It keeps the bullet from being pulled out of the case during handling, and very important, during recoil of its brother rounds. This is most significant in revolvers.

3) It keeps the bullet from moving out of the case until a threshold of pressure has been reached. This is most significant with slow powders, but important with all powders.

In taper-crimped cartridges, the bullet tension (the grip the case has on the bullet) is provided by friction more than by crimp. If you post-size a case onto a lead bullet, the case springs back more than the lead does, reducing bullet tension. This is less problematic with jacketed bullets than with lead, but can occur with either.

If your dies are adjusted correctly, the Lee FCD will NOT post-size your loaded cartridges. You will be able to tell if it is by carefully feeling the resistance as you run the cartridge into and out of the die.

The main reason for the existence of a crimp die that operates separate from the (usual) seat/crimp combination die is to simplify installing and adjusting those dies and to prevent the case mouth from digging into the sides of bullet as it is being seated. (This can happen with a strong crimp - mainly roll crimp - on a bullet while it is still being pushed deeper into the case by the seating plug. This is virtually unavoidable with the combo die, but if it is moderate presents no problem.)

I suggest reading these threads:

Not necessary 99% of the time, but convenient.

Lee Precision's thoughts on the matter can be found in these threads:

One thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091

this thread contains a poll

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603

The Virtue and the Vice
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/vie...?f=11&t=168362
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/6586...tml#post814465

Lost Sheep

Bugcola · June 19, 2013, 01:18 AM

lots of helpful information thanks all.

reason im asking is i bought a FCD but i guess i picked the wrong one up (308) i do want to get a FCD but they are sold out or expensive to those who have it (9mm). so its on my to get list.

i measure with bullet in 1.10 because the remington (store bought) rounds measure that. i made a few rounds to adjust the bullet seating die and this was the last round to come out let me know how it looks.

i compared it to the remington and the lip at the end of the brass near the bullet felt the same. i even loaded two rounds that matched and they went in and out pretty smooth.

also to note incase it makes a difference is there is no powder or primer in these. waiting for my powder and adjusting the seating before i use what primers i have.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwsga1o92s...619_010723.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwsga1o92s...619_010723.jpg

and just to toss it in there. this is a spent primer reused to adjust screw on the load master how does it look to deep, to high?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6aoz8ysep...615_004200.jpg

June 18, 2013, 07:18 PM	#1
Bugcola Member Join Date: June 8, 2013 Posts: 33	factory crimp question Hey all few questions. for the bullet seating how will i know for sure when its seated right ( a dummy round i made with bullet measured out 1.10) how will i know if the bullet seating die put a crimp to the bullet and when i install the FCD best way to see it put a nice crimp. and why is a 308 factory crimp die cheaper then a 9mm.. Last edited by Bugcola; June 18, 2013 at 07:28 PM.

June 18, 2013, 09:13 PM	#2
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,035	Assuming you're talking about 9mm.....it's seated right when it will feed and chamber reliably in your gun. It depends a lot on the bullet design and your chamber, I would probably test fire a couple dozen before locking into a particular length. For 9mm you don't really need "crimp" so much as just to make sure any flare is ironed down from the case mouth. The seating die will do that based on how far down the die body itself is set. Properly done, a nice taper crimp doesn't really look like a crimp at all - the case mouth opening is just flat against the bullet (but not flush on the outside). The FC die is more expensive for pistol rounds because it also resizes your loaded round again to make sure it will chamber. FC dies for bottleneck rifle rounds do not do that.

June 18, 2013, 09:43 PM	#3
SVTCobra306 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Posts: 434	I will add that the pistol fcd is also carbide lined.. That alone makes the price difference.

June 18, 2013, 10:21 PM	#4
mmb713 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 421	I use the FCD for 9mm and 45 Auto for pistol and 357 Magnum and 45 Colt for revolvers. For the pistols I've had best results, and the caliper micrometer measurements at the case mouths confirm this, by doing it this way: raise the press ram with shell holder to the top. Screw in the FCD until the die body touches the shell holder and back off the crimping stem. Lower the press and then raise a cartridge with a seated bullet into the die body and lower the crimping stem until it touches the case mouth. Lower the press handle and then screw in the crimping stem 1/2 turn. Now you're set up for a perfect taper crimp, just enough to iron out the flare. With the revolvers I use a half turn with plated bullets for a nice, light roll crimp that doesn't cut the plating. With jacketed bullets at magnum level loads I'll use a 3/4 turn for a firm roll crimp into the cannelure. Lee's instructions say you can use a full turn with the revolvers but I've found 3/4 to be perfect for a firm roll crimp. My rifle is a T/C Encore with 223 and 7mm-08 barrels and I don't crimp those at all. Can't help you with the rifle crimp die.

June 18, 2013, 10:45 PM	#7
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Lee's FCD (Factory Crimp Die) performs two functions. Crimping and post-sizing. The two operations are independent of one another and cometimes work at cross-purposes. With lead bullets, sometimes the post-sizing reduces the grip the case has on the bullet. The grip the case has on the bullet is important for three reasons. 1) It keeps the bullet from being knocked deeper into the case during handling and very important, during feeding. This is most significant in autoloaders 2) It keeps the bullet from being pulled out of the case during handling, and very important, during recoil of its brother rounds. This is most significant in revolvers. 3) It keeps the bullet from moving out of the case until a threshold of pressure has been reached. This is most significant with slow powders, but important with all powders. In taper-crimped cartridges, the bullet tension (the grip the case has on the bullet) is provided by friction more than by crimp. If you post-size a case onto a lead bullet, the case springs back more than the lead does, reducing bullet tension. This is less problematic with jacketed bullets than with lead, but can occur with either. If your dies are adjusted correctly, the Lee FCD will NOT post-size your loaded cartridges. You will be able to tell if it is by carefully feeling the resistance as you run the cartridge into and out of the die. The main reason for the existence of a crimp die that operates separate from the (usual) seat/crimp combination die is to simplify installing and adjusting those dies and to prevent the case mouth from digging into the sides of bullet as it is being seated. (This can happen with a strong crimp - mainly roll crimp - on a bullet while it is still being pushed deeper into the case by the seating plug. This is virtually unavoidable with the combo die, but if it is moderate presents no problem.) I suggest reading these threads: Not necessary 99% of the time, but convenient. Lee Precision's thoughts on the matter can be found in these threads: One thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091 this thread contains a poll http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603 The Virtue and the Vice http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050 http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/vie...?f=11&t=168362 http://rugerforum.net/reloading/6586...tml#post814465 Lost Sheep

June 19, 2013, 01:18 AM	#8
Bugcola Member Join Date: June 8, 2013 Posts: 33	lots of helpful information thanks all. reason im asking is i bought a FCD but i guess i picked the wrong one up (308) i do want to get a FCD but they are sold out or expensive to those who have it (9mm). so its on my to get list. i measure with bullet in 1.10 because the remington (store bought) rounds measure that. i made a few rounds to adjust the bullet seating die and this was the last round to come out let me know how it looks. i compared it to the remington and the lip at the end of the brass near the bullet felt the same. i even loaded two rounds that matched and they went in and out pretty smooth. also to note incase it makes a difference is there is no powder or primer in these. waiting for my powder and adjusting the seating before i use what primers i have. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwsga1o92s...619_010723.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwsga1o92s...619_010723.jpg and just to toss it in there. this is a spent primer reused to adjust screw on the load master how does it look to deep, to high? https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6aoz8ysep...615_004200.jpg