Possibly the most innovative 1911 in years.

[RickB]

Should Colt owners install that "enhancement" forthwith?
J.M.Browning might have had something to say about this particular piece.

It apparently won't fit on any other gun. Not only is the guide rod itself non-standard, but the area in the frame that accommodates it is non-standard, too.

This has very strange implications seeing as the prototypes were
fracturing right off the bat.

An interet pic of cracked SLIDE does not necessarily indicate that prototypes were fracturing right off the bat. The pic that I saw apparently depicted a slide that had fired 6000 rounds, some of them after the recoil assembly had failed. A slide might be expected to crack under such conditions, and might warrant a redesign of the recoil system as a result.

[polyphemus]

March 1911.
Arny tests Colt against Savage Arms
6000+ rounds fired with no failures.
No cracks and no stupid double coils neither.

[tipoc]

March 1911.
Arny tests Colt against Savage Arms
6000+ rounds fired with no failures.
No cracks and no stupid double coils neither.

Well in this case we don't know how many rounds the Marines put through the guns during the early testing. If it was 6,000 or more. We also don't know the protocol for those tests, meaning how often were the guns cleaned, etc. We know the early testing was in essence on the stock Colt Rail Gun.

If someone can site a reliable source for information on that it would be interesting to read.

We do know that the slides cracked in the area where forward serrations were cut into the slide. The area that is discussed in Yam's report here...

The Marine Corps contract testing stipulated a pretty tough service cycle between maintenance intervals, and leaked photos from the early test guns showed cracks in the frame and slide. As a result of these early failures, the front cocking serrations on the slide were changed in spacing and moved forward. This reduced the stress points which were created when cutting near the sharp interior corner where the spring tunnel joins the body of the slide. This is a common area for cracking on a normal 1911 slide, and the testing protocol only exacerbated the issue. The dust cover on the frame was also thickened to improve durability. Both of these changes, while subtle, made enough of a difference that the gun was able to pass the selection process.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3134

From what I've read the Marines spec requires that the recoil spring be swapped out at 5000 rounds. They wanted a set up that they felt was reliable past this round count, given their experience. This seems to be the origin of their desire for the recoil spring set up.

tipoc

[tipoc]

The discussion going on over here, where a rep from Colt is involved, may be helpful.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=419657

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[KyJim]

In Post 19, I observed that I could not see how the dual recoil spring would shoot softer. Physics is physics. Tim Lau verifies this after shooting the gun:

As an aside, some of my buddies who have shot the M45 report that the pistol shot softer than a standard 1911. I shot three types of ammunition through my M45 and Colt Rail Gun (with their respective recoil systems in place): Winchester “White Box” Q4170, Atlanta Arms 230gr ball, and Winchester Ranger RA45T. In my estimation, any difference in felt recoil was minimal at best as I couldn’t perceive any difference shooting any of the above three loads. Clearly the primary benefit of the system is the extended service life of the springs. Colt engineers have measured the M45 spring rates after over 8500 rounds fired and still found them within specifications.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3187.

The dual recoil spring possibly factored into the cracked frames reported in the test model at 6,000 rounds. Colt moved and slightly redesigned the forward cocking serrations and beefed up the slide a bit (but the gun still accepts a standard recoil spring setup). Mr. Lau mentioned in the same blog entry:

Back in the day, 22 lb recoil springs were installed in MEU(SOC) pistols which caused all sorts of long term problems, including broken barrel bushings. So while the system does work when dropped into an existing 1911, more testing is required before giving any full endorsement for putting the system in existing 1911 platforms.

Now, I know Mr. Lau is talking about more testing on the existing 1911 platform and not the new Marine platform, but I have to wonder why the Marines would want to "fix" a system that has been tested in combat for over a century. Their prior experiment of using 22 pound springs, instead of the normal 16 lb springs, did not turn out so well. Do this just to get some extra life out of a $5 spring (estimated bulk price)? Seriously, what am I missing?

[tipoc]

In an article that appeared in the April issue of Gun World the authors say...

This new 1911 had to pass an extreme USMC torture test of firing 8,000 rounds with minimal loss of recoil spring tension and the dual spring design was the way to make that happen.

http://www.gunworld.com/buyers-guide...5-cqbp-part-1/

The implication here, and elsewhere I've read, is that the Marines did not see a standard 16 pd. recoil spring still maintaining it's strength after 8,000 rounds. So the spring in spring set up was devised as a way of maintaining the capacity of the spring over that round count without having to go to a stronger spring.

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[AZAK]

So the spring in spring set up was devised as a way of maintaining the capacity of the spring over that round count without having to go to a stronger spring.

While this may be the case, this dual spring set up is hardly an innovation for Colt.

Colt has been putting them in Delta Elites starting back about twenty-five years ago.

I guess that my Delta Elite was way ahead of its time!

[1911Tuner]

It might not have been the initial intent but you can guarantee it is now part of the equation.

Sure it is. Colt is in business to make money. If they can sell another 10,000 units to people who want one just like the Marines have, they're gonna do it.

Springfield did the same thing with their GI Mil Spec. (Just like the one that Gramps carried ashore at Tarawa, etc.)

But the Marines' concept pistol had nothing to do with the civilian market until Colt decided to make it so.

[Old Stony]

The special teams in the military seem to be the only ones that can get the funding for new design firearms. I love the old 1911's and own a passel of different variations...along with a passel of newer designed handguns. To me the military took a step backward in purchasing the new colts. Granted there are many firearm proficient people in the services, but there are also many more modern pistols that are safer and more reliable for them. A match grade pistol relates to close tolerances that just doesn't relate to reliabilily under adverse conditions...as has been proven many times over by firearms such as the ak's. A pistol for the military is a back up weapon, rarely fired in combat and should be able to work full of sand or whatever with reasonable accuracy. Match grade accuracy is just not a requirement.
Special teams equipped with out of the box Sig-220's wouldn't be any less capable than with 1911's, have an easier weapon to maintain.....and dare I say a safer weapon with less chance of them shooting their own toes off?
I know, there are probably a bunch of old diehards out there steaming about the "safer weapon" statement. Training is good and some people take to it well, but a double action pistol removes some of the danger when a person is dealing in a stressful situation. There probably isn't an old police station in the country that hasn't had a hole shot in the floor at some time by a 1911....I can show you one in our local gun shop.

[RickB]

I say a safer weapon with less chance of them shooting their own toes off?

Maybe less chance of shooting the other guy's toe off, as well. While a "safe" gun is probably best for truck drivers and cooks, I suspect the guys who are actually shooting their pistols at people want to maximize their ability to hit things. I've shot a P220, a highly customized one at that, and wouldn't trade any of my 1911s for it.

[TunnelRat]

Special teams equipped with out of the box Sig-220's wouldn't be any less capable than with 1911's, have an easier weapon to maintain.....and dare I say a safer weapon with less chance of them shooting their own toes off?

Maybe less chance of shooting the other guy's toe off, as well. While a "safe" gun is probably best for truck drivers and cooks, I suspect the guys who are actually shooting their pistols at people want to maximize their ability to hit things. I've shot a P220, a highly customized one at that, and wouldn't trade any of my 1911s for it.

We're getting a bit off topic and into fanboyism at this point methinks.

[tipoc]

While this may be the case, this dual spring set up is hardly an innovation for Colt.

Colt has been putting them in Delta Elites starting back about twenty-five years ago.

Yep it was used in the Delta Elite. Detonics used it in their guns earlier. It's also been used by Colt in the Defender. The Radom Vis also used it back in 1935. The concept and practice of spring in spring recoil springs ain't new.

What is new is the use of it in a gun the Marines ordered and their specific reasons for it. Which is apparently, to extend the service life of the springs in the gun beyond the standard 5000 round life they currently spec the springs in their guns at. For them it's new.

In post #32 and #34 I had a link to some of the Marines many and unbroken years of rebuilding the 1911 pattern pistol for use since the end of WWII. So when they wanted a new one they choose this one. They do have experience with other guns. In this case they are sticking with what they know well.

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[tipoc]

The article in Gun World noted a few other differences between the M45CQBP and the Colt Rail Gun...

Although the Colt O1070RG (S/S) and O1980RG (Black Cerakote) rail guns both sport a four-space rail that’s built into the forward part of the receiver forging, this is a “Weaver” design, with scalloped lugs and a shallow-V side groove pattern. In contrast, the M45 sports a true MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail, with full-width lugs and a deep groove pattern on the sides. These nuances are more than cosmetic…the USMC M45 is the heaviest pony in the Colt 1911 stables—it weighs in at a solid 40 ounces, compared to 36 ounces for the lighter rail guns. And more weight forward usually translates to less muzzle flip when sending rapidly fired rounds downrange against a hostile enemy.

Other conspicuous differences between the rail guns are the slide serrations. While both feature slanted serrations at the forward and aft ends on either side of the slide, the commercial rail guns’ are more tightly spaced with nine forward and 11 aft, compared to the M45’s five forward grooves and six aft. And the reason? RJ put on a pair of heavy milspec gloves and showed that it was much easier to grab and cock the M45’s slide with wider serrations with his gloved hand than it was on the commercial rail guns.

http://www.gunworld.com/buyers-guide...5-cqbp-part-1/

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[kcub]

I love 1911s and especially Colt 1911s, but the fact is grandpa would have been better off at Tarawa with a 12 shot Glock .45. That pile of dead Japanese would have been 5 higher before he was reduced to K-Bar and rifle butt.

I realize the Glock wasn't around in WWII but the point is that it's here now and we're giving today's marine grandpa's gun with a rail. But its not as bad as Custer's trapdoor single shots against the Sioux's Winchesters.

[zincwarrior]

Indeed. Maybe my grandfather would have come back from Tarawa.

Its decent looking, but with multiple double column .45ACPs available now from good makers I have to ask...why???

And why the emphasis on longer spring life (and big bucks to do it)? Why not just get more $10 springs? If you're going to be in the field pushing past 5,000 rounds with a pistol, maybe you should have uparmed to real weapon instead?

Sounds like a bureaucratic boondoggle (again).

[Skans]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what feature(s) are so special about this Colt 1911?

[RickB]

Maybe less chance of shooting the other guy's toe off, as well. While a "safe" gun is probably best for truck drivers and cooks, I suspect the guys who are actually shooting their pistols at people want to maximize their ability to hit things. I've shot a P220, a highly customized one at that, and wouldn't trade any of my 1911s for it.

We're getting a bit off topic and into fanboyism at this point methinks.

More than a few people have questioned the USMC's choice of a new 1911, any 1911, when they could have had a fill-in-the-blank, instead. It could be that the Marine Corps are a bunch of 1911 fanboys, and they wouldn't be happy with a Glock, or FN, or SIG, or, or, or. I think there are lots of people who can't accept, in 2013, that there are still organizations, able to determine what they want as opposed to what they will be issued, that prefer the 1911 to anything else. I can certainly understand it, but people raised on "Glock perfection" might not get it.

[zincwarrior]

For the sake of argument why would you want a 7 shot 1911 in a combat zone vs. something of the same size, lighter, with more capacity? I'm not a Glock fan, but why?

I like 1911s. I have one. I can see them in a police, HD, or competition function. But a single column 1911 for what $2,500?
Chances are substantially higher that you're facing multiple opponents.
Chances are substantially higher that this is not your primary arm so the added weight could better be applied to higher capacity in the same firearm.

I don't see this as a shooter driven request.

[RickB]

"Modern" 1911s are 9-shot guns, if you carry them loaded.
I'd put first-shot hit probability near the very top of my list of requirements for a handgun that I'm actually going to shoot at bad guys, as opposed to one that I'm going to carry a lot, but maybe not use.
The weight and space of a handgun might possibly be better used for additional ammo for the primary weapon, if the pistol is carried as some sort of "back-up". I could carry two 30-round AR mags instead of a pistol that holds nine, or nineteen.
But, as is said, "Handguns don't win wars, but they save the lives of the soldiers who do."

[zincwarrior]

For considerably less you can get competition accurate pistols from a variety of manufacturers, which have a nice capacity.

For example: a competition level XDM with a 13 round capacity:
http://www.the-m-factor.com/html/specs_8.html

Frankly if you really need a 1911 style with a .45, go for an STI or something. At that price you could get an extremely accurate firearm.

[SpareMag]

All this poses the question of why not split the difference and so with a .40 with 15 rounds or so in the tube?

I am not military, but it seems to me the main consideration is that a handgun go bang in any condition. AFAIK, the attributes for functionality -loose tolerences- are largely incompatible with accuracy -tight tolerences.

So a high-tolerenced 1911 sounds like an confusing option to me. A handgun is gonna be used when the AR has dried up or in a CQC situation.

This is a fun discussion!

[tipoc]

But a single column 1911 for what $2,500?

The contract is worth 22.5 million bucks for 12,000 pistols and etc.

If I take $22,500,000.00 and divide it by 12,000 (the number of guns being bought) then I get $1875. per unit. Then when I toss in the extra magazines, spare parts, service, etc. which Colt is providing and that the gun is built to the MARSOC requirements, then I get a little different picture from what some might present.

tipoc

[tipoc]

I am not military, but it seems to me the main consideration is that a handgun go bang in any condition. AFAIK, the attributes for functionality -loose tolerences- are largely incompatible with accuracy -tight tolerences.

That a 1911 is capable of accurate fire under harsh conditions for a good long time and be reliable should be a given. It's why the Marines have been using them.

I'm gonna attach a link to an article from Stars and Stripes which was written in 2002. But first...

The Marines who carry the 1911s carry the MP5-N CQB weapon which is in 9mm so their 1911s are back up to that.

From the article...

Marine Capt. Jeffrey Stower, project officer for the MEU (SOC) .45 at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., said the .45 is essential to Marines’ direct-action missions as a secondary weapon. It’s so important, in fact, that the Marine Corps plans to upgrade the weapon.

The Corps now builds its own specialized version of the .45-caliber pistol from existing M-1911A1 frames still in inventory.

Armorers at the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico refit the guns. They install new slides, barrels and internal components to what is called “near match” or “combat accuratized” specifications. Each weapon costs about $600 and is good for 30,000 shots before it needs to be refitted.

The planned improvements won’t affect the .45’s appearance or make it shoot faster or more smoothly. But they should make it more durable.

They wanted a new 1911 that would go longer than 30,000 before requiring parts replacements or a rebuild and do it under extreme conditions.

Stower said the Marine Corps wants to put in “hardened, drop-in parts, which would enhance the reliability and endurance of the weapon, as well as lower the echelon of maintenance.”

Another Marine tells Star and Stripes:

“The two biggest reasons we carry the .45 pistol,” said Marine Maj. Tracy Tafolla, “is a single-action loader is a little faster for the Marines to use when conducting close-quarters battle.”

“We get faster, stronger and more accurate shots that we just wouldn’t get with a double-action pistol,” said Tafolla, head of the Special Missions branch, III3rd Marine Expeditionary Force Special Operations Training Group. That means Marines can get off a first round faster, smoother and more accurately.

“Another reason we use the MEU (SOC) .45 is because of its ability to incapacitate a hostile person with one round,” Tafolla said. “We’re much more likely to do that with a .45 than with a 9 mm.”

But here is the article and you can read for yourself why they have been using the 1911 and why they want to continue doing that.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meu_1911.htm

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[tipoc]

I posted this earlier as well. This is an article from 1999 that describes in detail the rebuild and modifications the Marines were making to their own 1911s.

Most of these things they are getting in the Colt guns they have ordered today.

Description of Modifications: “The MEU(SOC) pistol starts out as a stripped government contract M1911A1 frame, as manufactured up until 1945 or so. The frame is inspected, and the feed ramp polished and throated. The entire weapon is dehorned. All internal parts are replaced with current commercial items. King’s Gun Works supplies the beaver-tail grip safety and an ambidextrous thumb safety

Future rebuild pistols will have a “memory bump” on the grip safety. Currently, many operators are unable to depress the grip safety when having their thumb (properly) on top of the thumb safety. Some, understanding that your priority safety rests between your ears, have taped this useless grip “safety” closed. This is now forbidden, and will continue to present problems until the rebuild pistols are brought on line

Barrels are provided by Bar-Sto. The barrel bushings are form King’s Gun Works. The front sight is also form King’s Gun Works and is staked on.

The high profile rear sight is custom made at the RTE shop. This is an excellent unit, providing a good sight picture. It is secured to the slide by a hex head screw. The ejection port is lowered and scalloped to improve ejection. A fiber recoil buffer is installed. This controversial device is both cursed and praised. There is no doubt that the buffer absorbs some of the battering, but they do deteriorate, and debris can insinuate itself into the nether regions of the pistol. This does no appear to be a problem in the Marine Corps, as weapons maintenance takes on almost religious proportions.

There is no checkering on the MEU(SOC) pistol. This may be contrary to the exhortations of legions of pistolsmiths, writers, and wannabe commandos who insist that without such checkering the pistol will just slide and jump around in one’s hand when they are wet, bloody, etc.”

You can read more here...

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm

[chuckscap]

Nice to see Colt supplying new 1911s to the Marines. I just bought a Springfield Pro for myself. The fact that the Marines and FBI are going back to 1911s designed for reliability and accuracy can only be seen as a good thing. Nice that's it's Springfield and Colt too!